Where did reformers get the authority to leave the Catholic Church?

[JonNC]

He did take it out, in is very first Printed version of the Bible. he was then strong armed by his fellow protistant reformers to put it back in. The same is true of Revelation among other books in the bible.

The oft-quoted phrase about a “book of straw” comes from his preface to James in his first publication of the NT. Luther’s questions about James were primarily regarding it’s authorship, a question held by many biblical scholars of his time, and down throught the ages.
Luther on James in 1520, before his first publication in 1522

“…I will say nothing of the fact that many assert with much probability that this epistle is not by James the apostle, and that it is not worthy of an apostolic spirit; although, whoever was its author, it has come to be regarded as authoritative.”

In his preface to the book of James,

“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.”

Jon

ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm

 

[Jon_Hus]

There were vernacular translations of the Bible being made beginning in the 700s AD, the same period of history when the European languages were developing alphabets for themselves, and developing a written form. Martin Luther certainly had access to German-language Bibles when he was in the Seminary and probably as a child in school, as well.

I know all about pre-reformation vernacular versions of the Bible. There were very small parts of the Bible in the (almost, but not really) vernacular. In fact there was a German Bible prior to Luther, that is a fact. However, it wasn’t available to Luther or anyone else in his order so your comment about Luther having a German translation is not informed. Don’t forget, prior to the 95 thesis, Luther was a Roman Catholic professor of Bible. Luther put the Bible into the German common vernacular and made it available to the masses.

Luthers translation of the New Testament was made directly from the greek. Luther could read and did write in Latin. It was the Vulgate Luther was studying when he discovered the inconsistencies between Roman theology and the Bible.

By the way, if the Pope could have, he would have certainly had Luther burnt at the stake for numerous things, translating the Bible into the vernacular being just one. If the Pope had simply listened to Luthers complaint, that is the abuse of the sale of indulgences, none of what transpired would have, at least when it did. It would be like complaining that the Church should not sell raffle tickets for a dream vacation or offer Bingo except church goers were told if they didn’t buy raffle tickets or play bingo, their loved ones would spend longer than necessary in purgatory. The fact that Luther, even though he had a safe conduct to travel to answer for his views before the Bishops, had to be kidnapped by his friends to keep him from the gallows, speaks very loudly about the integrity of the church.

 

[jmcrae]

See, the office of the keys, I have no problem with. But why can’t it just stop there? Why should the church exploit those keys by offering special pardon to those who can pay up?

Indulgences were never limited to only those who could “pay up” - we still have the same Indulgences today that they had then, except for the ones involving money - those ones were taken out, because of the Reformation. But even back then, those without money could still receive other Plenary Indulgences, simply for saying their prayers, going to a Church for Mass on its feast day, reading their Bibles (if they were literate), participating in various Novenas, saying the Rosary, participating in Catechism classes or other religious education either as a student or as a teacher, etc.

Why should Christ’s forgiveness be held hostage? The problem is the Church took a good, essential, thing (that is, the binding and loosing of sins) and found a way to profit from it. Christ’s forgiveness extends to all the baptized who believe in Him. I think we can tell from his various discourses about the rich and the story of the poor woman who gave two copper coins that Christ didn’t intend his forgiveness to be bought and sold like a commodity.

Nor was it - the requirements for a Plenary Indulgence were the same then as they are today - to be in a state of grace, to go to Confession either before or after the Indulgenced action, to do the Indulgenced action (whatever it may be) that you have chosen, to pray one Our Father and one Hail Mary for the Pope’s intentions, and to receive Holy Communion on the same day or as soon as possible. Since you have to be in a state of grace already when you are doing the action, it doesn’t make any sense to say that they were “buying their way out of Hell” - they were already going to go to Heaven, even if they changed their mind and decided not to do the Indulgenced act.

 

[Jon_Hus]

So it was Luthers intention to start a religion, based soly on the text recording the historical accounts of our faith (rather than any teaching body) while doubting that the full text is inerrant and not in any way contradictory. I find it truely bizzar that Protistants accues us Catholics of being “against scriputre”, suggesting we should “read scipture” (well we all should, so I agree there) and accuse us of not “beleiving scripture” when these are the problems found at the very roots of your faith tradition.

I’m sorry that you were dropped on your head at a very early age. I’m sure your mom didn’t mean to do that.

 

[SSTeacher]

Almost forgot, are the Orthodox also acting without authority by having more books in their Bible?

If we’re perceived to have so acted, I guess there’s no chance of somebody in the West issuing an Indulgence to expunge any possible annoyance caused, is there?

Hopefully,
Mick

 

[crazzeto]

The oft-quoted phrase about a “book of straw” comes from his preface to James in his first publication of the NT. Luther’s questions about James were primarily regarding it’s authorship, a question held by many biblical scholars of his time, and down throught the ages.
Luther on James in 1520, before his first publication in 1522

In his preface to the book of James,

Jon

ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm

Then why is every source of information I have on this subject contradicting what you post here

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible

Initially Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called the Epistle of James “an epistle of straw,” finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work. He also had harsh words for the book of Revelation, saying that he could “in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.”[6] He had reason to question the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they were not accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his editions of the Scriptures. His views on some of these books changed in later years.

Luther chose to place the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments. These books and addenda to canonical books are found in the Greek Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Masoretic text. Luther left the translating of them largely to Philipp Melanchthon and Justus Jonas.[7] They were not listed in the table of contents of his 1523 Old Testament, and they were given the well-known title: “Apocrypha: These Books Are Not Held Equal to the Scriptures, but Are Useful and Good to Read” in the 1534 Bible.[8]

gbgm-umc.org/umw/james/Background/Canon.htm#reformation

wrote a preface to James claiming it “contradicts Paul by teaching justification by works”

wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Martin_Luther_say_The_Epistle_of_St_James_is_truly_an_Epistle_of_straw

ldsmag.com/gospeldoctrine/nt/071025nt42sf.html

Luther wrote:

St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is good and necessary for you to know.” He went on to call these books the “kernel and marrow of all books,” but declared that “St. James is really an epistle of straw compared to them for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it … [It is] not the writing of any apostle.” [1]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_James

reformationart.com/martin-luther–4-marburg-colloqu.html

Once, when asked if he truly loved God, Luther replied “ Love God? Sometimes I hate Him! ” Luther was also frustrated by the works-emphasis of the book of James, calling it “the Epistle of Straw, and questioning its canonicity. Also irritated with the complex symbolism of the Book of Revelation, he once said that it too, was not canon, and that it should be thrown into the river! He later retracted these statements, of course. Luther was a man who was easily misquoted or taken out of context. While a brilliant theologian, and a bold reformer, he would not have made a good politician. But then, he never aspired to any career in politics.

 

[Nominefili]

Indulgences were never limited to only those who could “pay up” - we still have the same Indulgences today that they had then, except for the ones involving money - those ones were taken out, because of the Reformation. But even back then, those without money could still receive other Plenary Indulgences, simply for saying their prayers, going to a Church for Mass on its feast day, reading their Bibles (if they were literate), participating in various Novenas, saying the Rosary, participating in Catechism classes or other religious education either as a student or as a teacher, etc.

Nor was it - the requirements for a Plenary Indulgence were the same then as they are today - to be in a state of grace, to go to Confession either before or after the Indulgenced action, to do the Indulgenced action (whatever it may be) that you have chosen, to pray one Our Father and one Hail Mary for the Pope’s intentions, and to receive Holy Communion on the same day or as soon as possible. Since you have to be in a state of grace already when you are doing the action, it doesn’t make any sense to say that they were “buying their way out of Hell” - they were already going to go to Heaven, even if they changed their mind and decided not to do the Indulgenced act.

Thank you for your levelheaded explanation. Obviously this is an explosive issue between our respective church bodies, and it’s nice to see that we can discuss this in a civil manner.

 

[JonNC]

I’m sorry that you were dropped on your head at a very early age. I’m sure your mom didn’t mean to do that.

You and I were in accord until this.

Jon

 

[jmcrae]

If we’re perceived to have so acted, I guess there’s no chance of somebody in the West issuing an Indulgence to expunge any possible annoyance caused, is there?

Hopefully,
Mick

Do the Eastern Orthodox collect Indulgences?

 

[JonNC]

Then why is every source of information I have on this subject contradicting what you post here

It doesn’t, but I’m also always careful with wiki. No where in your quotes does it say that Luther excluded James from any of his publications of the NT. The fact is that Luther translated every single book of the Bible that was traditionally in the western Bible of his time - 73 books. And he published them all. That Luther had some doubts about James and some other books is true. It is also quite unremarkable in history, as many other scholars did, too.

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

It doesn’t, but I’m also always careful with wiki. No where in your quotes does it say that Luther excluded James from any of his publications of the NT. The fact is that Luther translated every single book of the Bible that was traditionally in the western Bible of his time - 73 books. And he published them all. That Luther had some doubts about James and some other books is true. It is also quite unremarkable in history, as many other scholars did, too.

Jon

Oh, but I didn’t just quote wiki. I’ve quoted an abundance of websites, all confirming the same information. Including one site which very closely identifies with the reformation, there’s just a little too much information there for it to be denied.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5866753:

If we’re perceived to have so acted, I guess there’s no chance of somebody in the West issuing an Indulgence to expunge any possible annoyance caused, is there?

Hopefully,
Mick

Do the Eastern Orthodox collect Indulgences?

Ummm…

Cheerfully,
Mick

 

[Libertarian_FL]

I’ll give you my short simple answer and make this odd presumption for our Roman Catholic friends here but all of this debate misses a simple truth.

Question: Why did they leave the Roman Catholic Church and why are Christians abondoning the denominations in general now in many cases?

Answer: God wished it.

Why He need not answer to us He is God, the Alpha and the Omega, the power that smote Egypt and sent the Son to die for our sins. He is our shield and our protector. His Holy Spirit guides the faith, the Son is the key to the Father and the door and the Father is the Father. If this happens or anything else its God’s will.

Many Roman Catholics seem to forget with the denominations of the Protestants who we are to serve and love, who we are to honor and who is in charge. No council of men or Pope can overcome the power of the Lord when He wishes a thing to happen He calls on servants to do the thing. He did this with Moses, He did this with John the Baptist, He did this with His Disciples, He did this with Calvin and Luther just later on the Protestants fell into the same trap seeking Earthly power over the service to God.

 

[SSTeacher]

I’ll give you my short simple answer and make this odd presumption for our Roman Catholic friends here but all of this debate misses a simple truth.

Question: Why did they leave the Roman Catholic Church and why are Christians abondoning the denominations in general now in many cases?

Answer: God wished it.

How did you find this out? You didn’t get it off Wikipedia, did you?

Doubtfully,
Mick

 

[Jon_Hus]

You and I were in accord until this.

Jon

Ouch

 

[JonNC]

Oh, but I didn’t just quote wiki. I’ve quoted an abundance of websites, all confirming the same information. Including one site which very closely identifies with the reformation, there’s just a little too much information there for it to be denied.

Show me a reliable source that states that Luther excluded any book from any publication of his NT, or that his 1534 publication excluded any of the 73 books of the Western Bible of his time.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Ouch

I just thought crazzeto didn’t deserve that.

Jon

 

[Justy90]

Would you care to be a little more specific?

Cordially,
Mick

The joyous worship of the Early Church which seemingly was lost during medieval times when worship was gloomy and heavy and clergy virtually celebrated amongst themselves as if on a stage in front of the faithful.

Much originality came from the Reformation including the absence of papal supremacy (which was never a part of the Early Church) and infallibility which didn’t become Catholic doctrine until the late 1800’s.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m sorry that you were dropped on your head at a very early age. I’m sure your mom didn’t mean to do that.

Is this for real? This is outrageous? Jon is the last guy in this forum who deserves this bolony. Give me a break, man!???

 

[josie_L]

Is this for real? This is outrageous? Jon is the last guy in this forum who deserves this bolony. Give me a break, man!???

He didn’t say it to Jon, gurney, but all the same it’s inappropriate.