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agiosotheos
Guest
He posted the 95 Theses in 1517. There is nothing to indicate that he had any conception of starting a new church in doing that.
Where did reformers get the authority to leave the Catholic Church?
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agiosotheos
Guest
7? Where are you getting 7?Which of the seven Orthodox Churches did we actually “leave”?
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agiosotheos
Guest
It is unfortunate that the thought did not cross (most of) their minds that there might be a church preceding the RCC that did not suffer such corruption.
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agiosotheos
Guest
LOLDon’t you think its a bit ridiculous to include the last three “reformers” on your list being that they are popes? Do you think that it was possible to schism away from themselves
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agiosotheos
Guest
Given his doctrinal mindset, that would have been impossible. Some of his early followers even appealed to the Patriarch of Constantinople for union, and he refused them on the basis of their stubborn defense of the Augsburg Confession.…
If you’re a Catholic and you’re critical of Martin Luther for what he did, what do you think he should have done i.e. what would you have done in the circumstances?
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e) Become Orthodox?
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jmcrae
Guest
There were seven Patriarchs who departed from unity with Rome, and each one had his own Church, after that. They weren’t a committee of seven people ruling over one Church; they were actually seven distinctly separate organizations, each ruled by one Patriarch.
You describe yourself as an “An inquirer to Oriental Orthodoxy from Eastern Orthodoxy” - does this not signify that Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy are, in fact, not the same Church? But if they were just two different names for the same Church, why would you need to inquire?
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agiosotheos
Guest
:clapping:
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agiosotheos
Guest
Not.Actually, the Sistine Chapel is probably the one place on earth that you would never hear any heresy preached.
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agiosotheos
Guest
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agiosotheos
Guest
Not.
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agiosotheos
Guest
Who are these seven Patriarchs you are thinking of?
The Russian Orthodox Church and the Romanian Orthodox Church (for examples) are no less one Church (in the sense of a communion) than the Coptic Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. So they were different jurisdictions, different particular churches, different autocephalous bodies, but they were not different Churches.
This isn’t much different than the Roman communion today.
The Oriental Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are in fact not the same Church.
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jmcrae
Guest
Right. They are two of the Eastern churches that came into existence after the East-West split. Each has its own Patriarch; their Patriarchs are not members of a same committee that rules over both Churches in unity with one another.
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agiosotheos
Guest
You are clearly ignorant of this matter.
The Oriental Orthodox Church was out of communion with the Church of Rome before the East-West Schism.
No, we do not have singular committee’s running our churches. Except in the case of pan-Orthodox synods. Usually we run ourselves independently in a structure called an autocephalous church. However, that does not mean that we are not united. As a matter of fact, the Eastern Catholic Churches are run in almost the exact same way. All of the Eastern Orthodox churches are united as one Church completely sharing faith and Sacraments, and all Oriental Orthodox churches are united as one Church completely sharing faith and Sacraments.
To claim that we are not one Church because of jurisdictional independence within our communions is hypocrisy on your part.
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Justy90
Guest
And he knows it too. This is just another example of trying to play the exclusivity card.
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agiosotheos
Guest
Oh brother.
If he’s going to attack the EOC and OOC I would like it if he actually developed legitimate criticisms. Really, there are some that could be made.
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jmcrae
Guest
How is this any different than the “invisible Church” of the Protestants?
Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the Pope, are in union with the Pope. With what or who are the Orthodox Churches united, that binds them into one?
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Bluegoat
Guest
It does have similarities at the level of governance, though you will see there are differences in the understanding of Tradition, sacrament, authority and structure that make it work quite differently than many protestant groups. But it works much the same way the Church worked for a very long time. There is only one part of the Church that developed the bizarre understanding of unity that belongs to the Catholic Church. The East refused to follow them into that particular innovation, and we can see that it soon failed in much of the West too.
They are united by doctrine, belief, Christ, Tradition, the Sacraments.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Vice President Joe Biden I bet thinks of himself “as anything other than Catholic.”But quite early on, when Henry VIII got wind of Martin Luther’s ideas, he wrote a defense of the seven sacraments for which the pope awarded him the title, Defender of the Faith – meaning the Catholic faith. I’ve always felt that Henry VIII never thought of himself as anything other than Catholic.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
What is “bizarre” is a leaderless Christian Church, especially after our Lord chose St. Peter to be our leader. Failed? The Catholic Church only taught the Holy Gospel to the whole world.
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Bluegoat
Guest
The whole world? You are equating the Catholic Church with all of Christendom, which is inaccurate and an anachronism, just as it is when the Orthodox make the same claim.
Fail - this Catholic vision of authority and governance was the main cause of the Great Schism, and the various Protestant Reformations. It seems to me that it caused the greatest rifts that exist within Christianity. And more than that, if the rest of Christianity is leaderless, it is because this idea denied an accurate version of the leadership of Peter to it by changing it into something it was never meant to be. I would love it if the Bishop of Rome would take on his proper function and lead all Christians, unfortunately it doesn’t seem likely, since the Patriarchs of the East couldn’t make any headway.
It is always odd to me how Catholics claim they have remained unified, and that this shows the success and truth of their claims to authority, when there have been so many groups split from them. If everyone splits away but the Pope, can he claim that since he is unified with himself, it shows the CC must be the True Church? Sometimes I think people are bamboozled by the word “catholic” as part of the proper name, as if having the name in itself denotes truth and authority.
Perhaps it would be simpler to discuss such truth claims if we call the pre-schism church the catholic-orthodox Church, and the post-schism the A Church and B church. Then we could call the Reformation groups C, D, and so on.
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