Where did Satan come from?

[erikofholland]

I have been doing some research on the origins of Satan, but I am having a hard time trying to find any information on this. I remember this story that my parents use to tell me: they said that Satan was a fallen angel who fell out of grace with God. The thing is where does it say it in the Bible, and did this happen before or after the creation of Adam and Eve?

 

[SybilMolly]

God did not create Satan. God created Lucifer, who fell from grace and made himself Satan.

 

[runningdude]

Tradition is that Satan is indeed a fallen angel. He was created to serve God, and instead chose to oppose God at every turn. He was cast out of heaven. Satan is also called Lucifer, a meaning implying he was the brightest (most luminenscent) Angel, which you might help you research his origins.

In the strictest sense, this was not “before” Adam and Even, because Time did not exist until the Earth was created. However, but the good and fallen angels existed to aid and tempt humans after creation occurred. In the Book of Revelation, God promises the prophet John that Satan and the fallen angels will be speedily vanquished at the end of Time.

 

[bzkoss236]

I have been doing some research on the origins of Satan, but I am having a hard time trying to find any information on this. I remember this story that my parents use to tell me: they said that Satan was a fallen angel who fell out of grace with God. The thing is where does it say it in the Bible, and did this happen before or after the creation of Adam and Eve?

There’s a variety of places, some in the Old Testament, some in the New Testament, particularly in the book of Revelation. The book of Job, though likely a purely allegorical book, could also hold some insights into the mind of Satan. His story is a compilation from various parts of the Bible. Jesus at one point mentions having seen Satan fall from the sky like lightening, though this could just be a metaphor for him defeating Satan.

Satan is actually not a name, but a word meaning adversary.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning! how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations!” --Isaiah 14:12

“And he said to them: I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven.” --Our Lord (Lk. 10:18)

 

[erikofholland]

See the thing is the stuff from the old and new testament really confuse me. For one thing Jewish people don’t believe in Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, the Devil, or whatever you like to call him. They don’t believe in the same type of hell as Christians do, they just simply believe in good and evil.

It also confuses me that people will say that “Satan” was in the Garden of Eden as the serpent, but yet wasn’t all of the fallen angels happening right before Noah’s Ark happened? Or was “Satan” still an angel and then got Adam and Eve to eat the apple. Or was the serpent just a talking serpent

Also is Satan isn’t actually a name then why do we capitalize it? The Jewish write it as hasatan or satan. In the English language that makes it a proper noun.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

God did not create Satan. God created Lucifer, who fell from grace and made himself Satan.

Isaiah 14 which talks about this “Lucifer” (if you read earlier) is actually addressing King
Nebucanezzer II of Babylon, FYI, but who knows , maybe the Bible is giving a double
meaning here.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning! how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations!” --Isaiah 14:12

…

I just told somebody else, I think it’s important to note:

Isaiah 14 which talks about this “Lucifer” (if you read earlier) is actually addressing King
Nebucanezzer II of Babylon, FYI, but who knows , maybe the Bible is giving a double
meaning here.

“…you will take up this taunt-song against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has reached his end! how the turmoil is stilled”

• Isaiah 14:4

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

We don’t know all the details, but we KNOW that God did not create a Satanic Creature
designed to lead men astray. In the beginning (assuming time), God created all angels,
then gave them a choice: FOR or AGAINST their God. This one angel, supposedly the
greatest(?), was too proud to submit to God and chose AGAINST, leading one/third of
the angels to do likewise, and now is Satan.

WHY did he pull such a stupid move? PRIDE.
I’m actually asking on this forum what EXACTLY (if there’s a specific) was his beef.

 

[erikofholland]

We don’t know all the details, but we KNOW that God did not create a Satanic Creature
designed to lead men astray. In the beginning (assuming time), God created all angels,
then gave them a choice: FOR or AGAINST their God. This one angel, supposedly the
greatest(?), was too proud to submit to God and chose AGAINST, leading one/third of
the angels to do likewise, and now is Satan.

WHY did he pull such a stupid move? PRIDE.
I’m actually asking on this forum what EXACTLY (if there’s a specific) was his beef.

But God is omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotent, etc. Why didn’t he foresee this happening, why did he give the angels the choice in the first place. If God was the creator of everything good then why do they have the mindset to even rebel?

 

[bzkoss236]

See the thing is the stuff from the old and new testament really confuse me. For one thing Jewish people don’t believe in Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, the Devil, or whatever you like to call him.

Actually, they do. It is different than how we understand him, yes.

They see Satan as working for God to test us.

 

[bzkoss236]

But God is omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotent, etc. Why didn’t he foresee this happening, why did he give the angels the choice in the first place. If God was the creator of everything good then why do they have the mindset to even rebel?

For the same reason why we have free will. True love can only come about from a choice.

What makes the love of a significant other different than the generic love for others? It is the free choice. We aren’t robots, and neither are the angels.

They were given the choice to love and serve God, the supreme being, or themselves. Scripture (from the NT) indicates that 1/3 chose to disobey God and serve themselves.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

But God is omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotent, etc. Why didn’t he foresee this happening, why did he give the angels the choice in the first place. If God was the creator of everything good then why do they have the mindset to even rebel?

God did see it coming, he knows everything of course. That doesn’t mean God won’t create,
“creating” is part of his nature (yes God has a nature). It’s kind of a head-splitting mystery.
Now God doesn’t want robots. He wants his creation to CHOOSE him. Something interest-
ing about the angels, I THINK this is true: Angels don’t have free will ANYMORE, because
in the beginning of their existence, they had all the knowledge/wisdom necessary to make
this one and only decision, but some chose wrong. Generalized Cause: ARROGANCE.

Now we can’t know everything. Who can know the mind of an angel, or for that matter, the
very Mind of God the Almighty? God ALLOWS us to exist, sign of his benevolence, so the
least we can do is to CHOOSE GOD, but if we don’t, we’re gone.

 

[erikofholland]

For the same reason why we have free will. True love can only come about from a choice.

What makes the love of a significant other different than the generic love for others? It is the free choice. We aren’t robots, and neither are the angels.

They were given the choice to love and serve God, the supreme being, or themselves. Scripture (from the NT) indicates that 1/3 chose to disobey God and serve themselves.

Yes we do have free will; however, does God not have a plan for us? He knows exactly what we are going to do before we even do it? How does free will work with this?

Also to me love is not a choice to me, I don’t choose who I fall for. It’s just something that just happens. Now I do choose whether or not to go into a relationship with that person.

Oh and could you give me the chapter and verse that you found that scripture in? I would like to look it up.

 

[TimothyH]

The fallen angels refused to worship a God who was also a man.

It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that thou art mindful of him,
or the son of man, that thou carest for him?
Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,
putting everything in subjection under his feet."
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.
(Hebrews 2:7-9)

The fallen angels refused to worship a God who for a little while was “lower than the angels” They refused to worship a God who was also man - Jesus.

-Tim-

 

[bzkoss236]

Yes we do have free will; however, does God not have a plan for us? He knows exactly what we are going to do before we even do it? How does free will work with this?

Also to me love is not a choice to me, I don’t choose who I fall for. It’s just something that just happens. Now I do choose whether or not to go into a relationship with that person.

Oh and could you give me the chapter and verse that you found that scripture in? I would like to look it up.

It’s not helpful to think of God’s omniscience as foresight, because God is outside of time (time being a part of his creation). Instead, it is more like God sees every point in time in the same moment of eternal existence. And yes, God has a plan for all of us, but with our free will, we have the choice to obey or disobey. God’s overall plan will still succeed, but God does not plan for people to go to hell, that is our own doing.

Falling in love, or being “in love”, is not a choice, nor is it love. It is merely a feeling of attraction. Real love goes beyond that. Real love is the choice to commit to one person, to be there for them through thick and thin; to trust them and to be trusted.

I’ll have to look up the verses, but it is late right now. I might be able to get to it tomorrow.

 

[erikofholland]

God did see it coming, he knows everything of course. That doesn’t mean God won’t create,
“creating” is part of his nature (yes God has a nature). It’s kind of a head-splitting mystery.
Now God doesn’t want robots. He wants his creation to CHOOSE him. Something interest-
ing about the angels, I THINK this is true: Angels don’t have free will ANYMORE, because
in the beginning of their existence, they had all the knowledge/wisdom necessary to make
this one and only decision, but some chose wrong. Generalized Cause: ARROGANCE.

Now we can’t know everything. Who can know the mind of an angel, or for that matter, the
very Mind of God the Almighty? God ALLOWS us to exist, sign of his benevolence, so the
least we can do is to CHOOSE GOD, but if we don’t, we’re gone.

I can see that logic, but I have the hard time understanding free will and him having a plan for us. If he has a plan for us and knows the outcome of that plan then how does the free will work?

For example I am transgender and I have always felt this way ever since I can remember. My father is a Christian man; however, he is very homophobic/transphobic and he is an alcoholic. Growing up in this environment was terrible, it has lead me to having severe depression, suicidal thoughts and self harm. I nearly committed suicide twice and after the last time I sought out help. At the age of 13 I became an atheist because God never answered my prayers, why wouldn’t he save a child from this torment. I am now 23 and still an atheist; however, now I don’t reject God because he didn’t answer my prayers. Now I disbelieve in him because of everything I have learned from science and my research of the other Abrahamic religions.

Now back to the purpose on why I gave you that example. Why would God protect the free will of my father instead of helping an innocent child and keeping this child believing? He would have had two followers instead of one. To me his plan doesn’t include free will very well.

 

[erikofholland]

It’s not helpful to think of God’s omniscience as foresight, because God is outside of time (time being a part of his creation). Instead, it is more like God sees every point in time in the same moment of eternal existence. And yes, God has a plan for all of us, but with our free will, we have the choice to obey or disobey. God’s overall plan will still succeed, but God does not plan for people to go to hell, that is our own doing.

Falling in love, or being “in love”, is not a choice, nor is it love. It is merely a feeling of attraction. Real love goes beyond that. Real love is the choice to commit to one person, to be there for them through thick and thin; to trust them and to be trusted.

I’ll have to look up the verses, but it is late right now. I might be able to get to it tomorrow.

But I thought God was always with us, so he then has to be apart of his creation right? To me it sounds like if he is outside of space and time then he cannot interact with his creation. Then what is “hell?” Is it what the Jewish believe in or is it what the Christians and Muslims believe in?

Also I’m not really familiar with love so I’m not going to depute your point and thank you for the verses. I appreciate it.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I can see that logic, but I have the hard time understanding free will and him having a plan for us. If he has a plan for us and knows the outcome of that plan then how does the free will work?

I don’t know *how *free will works, but I can say that the foreknowledge of
God does not mean everything happens according to God’s desires. He
does have a plan for salvation, he’s been working through the course of
history in order to give us every opportunity to be saved. If a person re-
fuses God’s offer, God isn’t exactly happy with it, which is evidence of
Free Will. The fact that we can potentially act against God is what it
means to have free will.

For example I am transgender and I have always felt this way ever since I can remember. My father is a Christian man; however, he is very homophobic/transphobic and he is an alcoholic. Growing up in this environment was terrible, it has lead me to having severe depression, suicidal thoughts and self harm. I nearly committed suicide twice and after the last time I sought out help. At the age of 13 I became an atheist because God never answered my prayers, why wouldn’t he save a child from this torment. I am now 23 and still an atheist; however, now I don’t reject God because he didn’t answer my prayers. Now I disbelieve in him because of everything I have learned from science and my research of the other Abrahamic religions.
Now back to the purpose on why I gave you that example. Why would God protect the free will of my father instead of helping an innocent child and keeping this child believing? He would have had two followers instead of one. To me his plan doesn’t include free will very well.

I’m really not equipped to handle this On-Forum (make sense?), but I’ll at
least say that this is the Devil’s game. So much goes wrong because he
beguiled humans into sinning, thus we are all messed up in one way or
another.
I’d love to contact you in Private Messages, perhaps we can talk about
all that in greater length.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Isaiah 14 which talks about this “Lucifer” (if you read earlier) is actually addressing King
Nebucanezzer II of Babylon, FYI, but who knows , maybe the Bible is giving a double
meaning here.

From Haydock’s Bible Commentary:

Ver. 12. O Lucifer. O day-star. All this, according to the letter, is spoken of the king of Babylon. It may also be applied, in a spiritual sense, to Lucifer, the prince of devils, who was created a bright angel, but fell by pride and rebellion against God. (Challoner) (Luke x. 18.) (Calmet) — He fell by pride, as Nabuchodonosor did. (Worthington) …