Where did the Book of Mormon come from?

[tequilamac]

They speak Reformed-Reformed Egyptian, known by some as Arabic which is Greek to me being that I speak only the Reformed Saxon tongue which some call Appalachian English.
WP

Ah. So today’s Edyptian speaks Reformed-Reformed Egyptian. Did Joseph Smith teach it to them? A group of Mormon missionaries perhaps went to Egypt and taught them to quilt and speak reformed reformed?
I think I shall look up the actual mormon population in Egypt and see how many speak reformed reformed.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Joe Smith was very smart and had a very active imagination and he lived during a time of remarkable religious and millennial turbulence.

I think he made it all up.

Have you read “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn M. Brodie or “One Nation under Gods” by Richard Abanes?

Both are excellent biographies of Smith. He was quite the confidence man.

But what did it profit (or Prophet ) him?
He ended up murdered by a gang of unruly Freemasons for stealing their “Secret Rites”.
WP

 

[tequilamac]

But what did it profit (or Prophet ) him?
He ended up murdered by a gang of unruly Freemasons for stealing their “Secret Rites”.
WP

Oh my. This is really very confusing. Now I know the Freemasons trace themselves all the way back to Solomon. So it could have been merely a failure to communicate. The Masons were speaking ammorite and the Mormons reformed reformed Egyptian. I am sure it was all a great big misunderstanding.

 

[tundramom]

To the OP,
I grew up Mormon as well and I went through several theories on the origins of the BOM. I have come to the conclusion that JS did indeed make it up as he went along. As he continued to lie about this or that, his stories got larger and larger.

Thank God you have decided to become Catholic! I did too.

in Christ
Steph

 

[majick275]

what professor said:

utlm.org/onlineresources/anthonletter.htm

what the LDS scriptures assert:
pearl of great price JS-H:

• 61 The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand tongues was all the time employed in circulating afalsehoods about my father’s family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of bMartin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability.
  62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the aUrim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.
  63 Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:
  64 “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.
  65 “He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of aangels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were bsealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.” *

what really happened? you can easily verify from multiple sources that it was this way:

irr.org/MIT/divination.html

the seer stones have been displayed at BYU, are in hidden away in the LDS vaults in Utah and are referred to throughout the D&C as proof of their “use”.

pictures:

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/avalonianchurch/snap.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mormonstories.org/top10toughissues/peepstones.html&h=199&w=326&sz=19&hl=en&start=10&tbnid=VMiss4r7lU3kzM:&tbnh=72&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bjoseph%2Bsmith%2Bseer%2Bstone%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

when you dig in deep and find out all the facts (especially the ones that used to be “touted” but now aren’t talked about and re in fact “supressed” through revisionist history in subsequent LDS teaching manuals) you see that this was a simple hoax, a con to make money that was successful beyond anyone’s wildest dreams of avarice that was then taken to the next level and coopted by other greedy men and finally incubated in what was essentially an independent thocracy until a generation was so inculcated as to be convinced of it’s authenticity. Then sincere people unknowingly perpetuated a fraud. the still grasp at straws today desperately seeking a way for it to be true. I wonder at folks like Gordon Hinckley. surely he must know it isn’t true. What does he hope to accomplish? is he a pious fraud hoping to do well or a jaded power addict hanging on to a means of wealth and power?

Either way, this is ridiculous as a religion. Stop playing around with “clever stories” and strange doctrines. Repent and be baptized, heaven needs you for the glory of God.

 

[Karin]

1.The theory that the American Indians are descendants of the Hebrews is genetically incorrect.
No one questions this anymore due to the DNA testing available today which wasn’t available in the 1800’s.

2.There never was a reformed Egyptian language. And Hebrews didn’t write in Egyptian.

3.Egyptians were pagans during the Old Testament era, so why would the Book of Mormon be based on pagan Egyptian writings?

 

[Zooey]

Joseph Smith made the whole thing up as he went along.
He was a liar & a con man. Why anybody would think anything else has always been beyond my comprehension…

 

[Karin]

[SIGN]AMEN![/SIGN]

Joseph Smith made the whole thing up as he went along.
He was a liar & a con man. Why anybody would think anything else has always been beyond my comprehension…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

About the reformed Egyptian business… does this relate to the Book of Abraham being taken from some papyrus with Egyptian hieroglyphics? It is interesting that the papyrus was later found not have anything to do with Abraham, but rather it was in Egyptian funeral text. Joseph Smith didn’t realize that anybody would ever figure out Egyptian.

As to the OP’s question, I believe that the BOM is a complete hoax. This is backed up by the fact that the civilization recorded therein can not be verified, that the lineage of the North American Indians has been proven with DNA NOT to have come from Israel (as claimed), and because the New Testament warns us about a “prophet” who proclaim a different Gospel.

To the OP, you say that you have decided to convert to the Catholic Church but you still want to see if the Mormon faith is not true. I commend you for still searching for truth. Are you going to an RCIA class? What about your family, I can’t imagine you getting a lot of support on this issue if they are still practicing the mormon faith? I’ll be praying for you!

 

[PaulDupre]

BumpSetSpike,
Welcome brother! I am convinced from the excellent scholarship available these days that the BoM came about like this:

Sidney Rigdon was a former Campbellite minister. Sidney wanted to start a “restored church”. He had long predicted that a “new scripture” would be discovered that would clear up all the confusion that bible Christians had over points of doctrine (faith vs works, infant baptism, etc).

Sidney was employed for a time at E.B. Grandin printers. A protestant minister named Solomon Spaulding left a manuscript of a novel called “Manuscript Lost” at E.B. Grandin, hoping to get it published. It was never published. The novel was full of popular ideas of the time, namely, that the American Indians were the lost tribes of Israel, and that Jesus, when he said “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold…” was speaking of the lost tribes (the Indians) and came to visit these “lost sheep” in the Americas after his resurrection.

This theory was expounded by many tent preachers and, most notably, by another minister named Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph) in his popular book “A View of the Hebrews”. It was the popular theory of the day.

It was no coincidence that the Spaulding manuscipt went missing from the print shop at the same time that Sidney Rigdon left town. Sidney was seen by his relatives spending many hours in his study pouring over a crude manuscript and writing in a tablet.

A year or so later, Sidney Rigdon was spotted in Joseph Smith’s home town. He apparently met Joseph Smith, Sr (a notorious religious con man) and enlisted the aid of the professional con-man family in creating a new religion based on the new manuscript he had created.

It is no coincidence that the Book of Mormon is a ridiculous dramatic tale interspersed with 19th century protestant sermons. And guess what? The BoM verifies everything that Sidney Rigdon taught. All of his Campbellite restorationist doctrine is codified in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon just provided “scriptural” proof for what people already believed.

Joseph Smith was originally just the “unschooled youth” used to bring the “translation” forth. You see, the book could only be considered miraculous if an unschooled youth brought it forth. This is the same argument used by Muslims to declare the Koran miraculous.

But Joseph was smarter and more ambitious than Sidney gave him credit for. Soon, Sidney was relagated to a secondary position, while Joseph acculmulated wealth, power and women. Oh, the women! Joseph bedded his many wives, other men’s wives and many young girls, all in the name of the Mormon god. It’s good to be the prophet!

And when the Book of Mormon was ready for publication, guess where they went to get it printed? E.B. Grandin printers!

Paul

 

[FCEGM]

BumpSetSpike,
Welcome brother! I am convinced from the excellent scholarship available these days that the BoM came about like this:

Sidney Rigdon was a former Campbellite minister. Sidney wanted to start a “restored church”. He had long predicted that a “new scripture” would be discovered that would clear up all the confusion that bible Christians had over points of doctrine (faith vs works, infant baptism, etc)… . .

Thank you, Paul. Is there a website you would recommend that discusses this further?

 

[PaulDupre]

Thank you, Paul. Is there a website you would recommend that discusses this further?

My favorite is this one.

Happy reading!
Paul

 

[FCEGM]

My favorite is this one.

Happy reading!
Paul

Thank you, Paul.

 

[Strevel]

I was raised mormon so I know the story, but since I’ve decided to convert to Catholicism all I want to know is if the Mormon faith isn’t true, where did the BOM come from?

I don’t believe that Joseph Smith and his interpretors just made it up as they went along.

I’m really confused about this because the Mormon faith right now just has so many loopholes in the Doctrines and even the prophet’s doctrines condradict each other, but this is one thing I can’t really seem to figure out.

I agree with you. I even went on a Mission in California…which prepared me to be a stronger Catholic. Funny thing is that a nice Catholic lady handed me a brochure from the Catholic faith as i was knocking on her door to try to convert her. hahahaha I think she never even knew that I would leave the LDS Church and become Catholic years later due to her warm hearted efforts. I have tried to find her. All I remember is that she attended Saint Bedes in the Oakland area. I pray for her regularly.

Don

 

[Strevel]

Thank you, Paul. Is there a website you would recommend that discusses this further?

Joseph Smith, a young Boy, was walking in the woods one day thinking about how to make a buck, er, sorry, thinking on religion when God and Christ appeared to him. One version says they gave him some Golden Plates, another says that they told him where they were. He supposedly translated them by the gift and power of God. The LDS Church was formed shortly afterwards. They then took that perfect book from God and made it better by taking out the parts that did not prove their beliefs, placing things in there that did prove their points…they were immproving on God I guess…

Joseph had a history of (from historical accountings that the LDS Church will not tell you) of looking for God in the dirt, telling peoples fortunes from peering into the inside of a hat, and was a known filanderer. Maybe that is how the Polygamy thing got started, …hummmmm…

…just my view as a guy that was an active, temple reccommend holder, served a full two year mission honorably, Elder and Elders Quorum Teacher and even went to the Temple Regularly…guy.

Now, proudly (actually humbly) Catholic to a marrow of my bones.

Don

 

[AMDGtoo]

The book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Beginnings by Grant Palmer is very eye opening. (Don’t worry, Mormon friends, Mr. Palmer is still a Mormon, in fact he once was a seminary instructor, and his book was once sold in Desseret bookstores.) Anyway, I recommend reading it.

 

[Strevel]

About the reformed Egyptian business… does this relate to the Book of Abraham being taken from some papyrus with Egyptian hieroglyphics? It is interesting that the papyrus was later found not have anything to do with Abraham, but rather it was in Egyptian funeral text. Joseph Smith didn’t realize that anybody would ever figure out Egyptian.

As to the OP’s question, I believe that the BOM is a complete hoax. This is backed up by the fact that the civilization recorded therein can not be verified, that the lineage of the North American Indians has been proven with DNA NOT to have come from Israel (as claimed), and because the New Testament warns us about a “prophet” who proclaim a different Gospel.

To the OP, you say that you have decided to convert to the Catholic Church but you still want to see if the Mormon faith is not true. I commend you for still searching for truth. Are you going to an RCIA class? What about your family, I can’t imagine you getting a lot of support on this issue if they are still practicing the mormon faith? I’ll be praying for you!

Yes, do go to the classes to support you in your faith. Then live your Catholic faith with all your heart. Attend Mass, pray, focus and do the right thing. Oh, yes, if your Parish has it, eat donuts after Mass! …friends are important.

Two points and a standing ovation for the first paragraph to the post i am reponding to!!! You are so accurate!!

Ora Pro Nobis!

Don in Las Vegas

 

[jmcrae]

1.The theory that the American Indians are descendants of the Hebrews is genetically incorrect.
No one questions this anymore due to the DNA testing available today which wasn’t available in the 1800’s.

2.There never was a reformed Egyptian language. And Hebrews didn’t write in Egyptian.

3.Egyptians were pagans during the Old Testament era, so why would the Book of Mormon be based on pagan Egyptian writings?

It makes a weird kind of sense, actually. Moses, after all, was a Prince of Egypt, and he is also traditionally thought to be the author of the first five books of the Bible - Joseph Smith may have thought that Moses wrote them in the Egyptian language, and that written Hebrew was taken from Moses’ knowledge of the Egyptian language. (He most likely didn’t, since he was writing for a Hebrew audience, not an Egyptian audience, and the Hebrews already had their own written language - but that’s beside the point.)

 

[Strevel]

It makes a weird kind of sense, actually. Moses, after all, was a Prince of Egypt, and he is also traditionally thought to be the author of the first five books of the Bible - Joseph Smith may have thought that Moses wrote them in the Egyptian language, and that written Hebrew was taken from Moses’ knowledge of the Egyptian language. (He most likely didn’t, since he was writing for a Hebrew audience, not an Egyptian audience, and the Hebrews already had their own written language - but that’s beside the point.)

Your point is a good point…except. Joseph Smith (JS) was not supposed to be thinking at all. He said he was following the will and dictum of God. If he did not know what he was doing and got it wrong, misstranslated, called things what they were not, …as he did in this missidentification of a burial scroll as scripture, that was Joseph Smith. If he got it wrong, he was not under the guidance of God and he was wrong, …so much for the Prophet part.
See, people who are not LDS do not understand the strength and power that Mormons place behind their perception of the word “prophet”. He does not just speak for God, he speaks AS God!! It passes our view in the Infallibility of the Pope when he speaks on religious issues (in Cathedral). What JS said was direct from the mouth of God and could not be questioned, even by reality… supposedly. If we say JS, as the Mormons view him got it right in his identification of the scrolls and in the translation of the scrolls, then he was speaking as Gods mouthpiece and authoritatively. Except he got it wrong in the identfication of what the writting was. It was not lost scripture, it was just an old run of the mill burial text given to everyone that died, and he got the translation wrong…oooops, reality hurts! He was not a prophet, he got it all wrong, it was not lost scripture, he got that wrong. He was not a prophet, but a very missguided man that has given birth to a religion that is the “borg” of religion. Borg / reference Star Trek for the definitions.

"I am Catholic, an original Christian and I will not be assimilated!

Ora Pro Nobis!as:thumbsup:

Don in Veg

Don in Vegas

 

[jbogedahl]

This is another productive thread… I’m sure the original poster is so grateful for all of the intellectual insite provided here. Once again I see that love of neighbor is alive and well amongst the Catholics and other anti-mormons.

Now for a real answer:

If you were raised Mormon, you pretty much know the story. I would refer you to read through the Joseph Smith History again and other articles about the history of the LDS church… from LDS historians. There’s nothing that bothers me more than anti-mormons quoting other anti-mormons to sustain their beliefs, or rather unbeliefs of the LDS church. If you don’t believe the LDS church, that’s fine, I respect other religions and think that the people who truly practice their religion do great things. And not just Christians, but others as well, Jews, Islam, Buddhists, and so forth have great beliefs that I respect. I wish for the same respect for my beliefs. If you really wish to know more about the LDS church, visit www.lds.org, www.mormon.org and so on. Otherwise, enjoy practicing your beliefs, but please don’t put down and ridicule mine.

Sincerely,

Jacob