Where did the Book of Mormon take place?

[ParkerD]

Please provide your source for the deliberate destruction of artifacts by “Smithsonian people”.

Zaffiroborant,
One would need to do some research about Baden Powell and his approach to the whole story of the ancient American inhabitants and how advanced their civilizations were. I have a brother-in-law (seriously) who has seen interviews with Smithsonian retirees who told of events in the 1800’s where architecture and artifacts were deliberately destroyed.

Thanks, Jerusha, for noting that such a thing could actually happen.

 

[ParkerD]

If you will compare your posts, you will see a conflict.

In one you state “artifacts”, and the other you state “architecture”. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Especially when it relates to your comment

BTW, do you have a reference for that statement?

Twopekinguys,
I took the website to mean that if architecture was destroyed, then the artifacts within the architecture were not carefully and painstakingly preserved. But, you win if you wish.

 

[twopekinguys]

Zaffiroborant,
One would need to do some research about Baden Powell and his approach to the whole story of the ancient American inhabitants and how advanced their civilizations were. I have a brother-in-law (seriously) who has seen interviews with Smithsonian retirees who told of events in the 1800’s where architecture and artifacts were deliberately destroyed.

Thanks, Jerusha, for noting that such a thing could actually happen.

Were these documented interviews?

I have no doubt that there may have been rogue individuals that destroyed artifacts/architecture, but I find it hard to believe that this was sanctioned. Especially by the Smithsonian.

With regard to the mounds being destroyed. Many of these mounds are located in areas close to large rivers and lakes. Nature itself has destroyed many of them, and man just finished the process. The mounds near Ashland Ky, are a prime example of this.

Also, many of these mounds are on privately owned land, and controlled by their owners, and not a museum or park service.

“Most of the mounds in Mississippi, however, are on privately owned land. As a result, many mounds have been irreparably damaged or completely destroyed by modern development and looting.”

or

“Of the 23 mounds originally present, four were destroyed and several others reduced to remnants by agriculture and excessive grazing prior to the site’s acquisition as a state park.”
nps.gov/nr//travel/mounds/textonly.htm

and

Another regional site is the Forest Home Farm Site Complex in South Portsmouth, Kentucky about 33 miles west of Ashland, Kentucky. It is across the river from Portsmouth, Ohio in Greenup and Lewis Counties, Kentucky. This site is located on a family owned farm. You must have permission to visit it."
library.thinkquest.org/CR0212160/Regional%20History.htm

Again, I don’t doubt that these things have been destroyed, that is obvious. What isn’t obvious is that it was sanctioned in any way by the Smithsonian.

If these “interviews” weren’t documented, they are just hearsay, and carry little to no weight at all.

 

[zerinus]

Some Mormons say the Great Lakes area. Some Mormons limit it to Central America. Why can’t the Mormons tell us where the Book of Mormon peoples lived? Where do you as a Mormon think they lived?

They lived on the American continent. We think that the great archaeological remains of South and Central America, such as those of the Inca and Aztec civilizations, are those of the remnants of the Book of Mormon people.

 

[Catholic20064]

They lived on the American continent. We think that the great archaeological remains of South and Central America, such as those of the Inca and Aztec civilizations, are those of the remnants of the Book of Mormon people.

Rodney Meldrum would disagree with you:

bookofmormonevidence.org/

So would Phyllis Carol Olive:

bookofmormonlands.com/

There seem to be a growing number of Mormons who reject the entire idea of a Nephite civilization in South and Central America. They limit it to the Eastern United States instead. Any comments on their ideas?

Hard to believe the Mormons can’t agree among themselves as to where these civilizations were.

 

[zerinus]

Rodney Meldrum would disagree with you:

bookofmormonevidence.org/

So would Phyllis Carol Olive:

bookofmormonlands.com/

There seem to be a growing number of Mormons who reject the entire idea of a Nephite civilization in South and Central America. They limit it to the Eastern United States instead. Any comments on their ideas?

They are entitled to their opinions, and I am entitled to mine.

Hard to believe the Mormons can’t agree among themselves as to where these civilizations were.

The Church does not have an official position on BoM geography. The Church’s position is that information on the subject has not been revealed. Members of the Church are free to come to any conclusion they like about that.

God is not obliged to tell us everything we want to know. He tell us what He wants us to know. There are all kinds of things I would like to know; but I don’t think God is going to tell me about them just because I would like to know them.

 

[averagejoe84]

The fact of the matter is that the church takes no view because to do so would open them to ridicule. Various apologists have put forward opinions about where the BOM takes place, some have already been mentioned, I think Nibley took a view. I believe also that Spencer W. Kimball made some comments whilst in Chile, but I could have mis-remembered that There are frequent articles in Dialogue on this subject.

Of course it’s all conjecture because the BOM is entirely fictional. There hasn’t been some massive conspiracy to cover up the evidence by anyone. Surely a city like Zarahemla, which sounds roughly the size of ancient Jerusalem wouldn’t just disappear.

The lack of physical evidence is old hat now anyway. DNA evidence has blown a massive hole in BOM historicy. There isn’t a shred of Jewish or middle eastern DNA to be found in the native american populations, so science is showing that mormonism is a falsehood and leaving very little room for doubt.

Even the reformed LDS church have dropped the idea that the BOM is some historical record now, and even the LDS Church proper has started to back peddle a bit having removed references to the Nephites & Lamanites being ancestors of the American Indians in the introduction to the BOM.

 

[Marie5890]

The fact of the matter is that the church takes no view because to do so would open them to ridicule. Various apologists have put forward opinions about where the BOM takes place, some have already been mentioned, I think Nibley took a view. I believe also that Spencer W. Kimball made some comments whilst in Chile, but I could have mis-remembered that There are frequent articles in Dialogue on this subject.

Of course it’s all conjecture because the BOM is entirely fictional. There hasn’t been some massive conspiracy to cover up the evidence by anyone. Surely a city like Zarahemla, which sounds roughly the size of ancient Jerusalem wouldn’t just disappear.

The lack of physical evidence is old hat now anyway. DNA evidence has blown a massive hole in BOM historicy. There isn’t a shred of Jewish or middle eastern DNA to be found in the native american populations, so science is showing that mormonism is a falsehood and leaving very little room for doubt.

Even the reformed LDS church have dropped the idea that the BOM is some historical record now, and even the LDS Church proper has started to back peddle a bit having removed references to the Nephites & Lamanites being ancestors of the American Indians in the introduction to the BOM.

 

[ricko]

Of course it’s all conjecture because the BOM is entirely fictional. There hasn’t been some massive conspiracy to cover up the evidence by anyone. Surely a city like Zarahemla, which sounds roughly the size of ancient Jerusalem wouldn’t just disappear.

The lack of physical evidence is old hat now anyway. DNA evidence has blown a massive hole in BOM historicy. There isn’t a shred of Jewish or middle eastern DNA to be found in the native american populations, so science is showing that mormonism is a falsehood and leaving very little room for doubt.

Even the reformed LDS church have dropped the idea that the BOM is some historical record now, and even the LDS Church proper has started to back peddle a bit having removed references to the Nephites & Lamanites being ancestors of the American Indians in the introduction to the BOM.

But, but that can’t be! It’s certainly time for a new revelation from God!! Oh ye prophets were are ye when we need thee!

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
One would need to do some research about Baden Powell and his approach to the whole story of the ancient American inhabitants and how advanced their civilizations were. I have a brother-in-law (seriously) who has seen interviews with Smithsonian retirees who told of events in the 1800’s where architecture and artifacts were deliberately destroyed.

Thanks, Jerusha, for noting that such a thing could actually happen.

So then there aren’t any, thanks.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Where was the Garden of Eden? I am not LDS, but I don’t see why they need to p(name removed by moderator)oint the locations on the modern map for the allegorical or historical events depicted in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Catholic20064]

Where was the Garden of Eden? I am not LDS, but I don’t see why they need to p(name removed by moderator)oint the locations on the modern map for the allegorical or historical events depicted in the Book of Mormon.

The Mormons claim the Garden of Eden was in northwestern Missouri near Independence, Missouri.

mrm.org/eden

They can tell us where the Garden of Eden was, but can’t find out where the events of the Book of Mormon took place. They can’t even agree where the Hill Cumorah was located though their early teachings make in clear it was near Palmyra, New York.

 

[Jerusha]

The geography is right, the timeline is wrong, and the ethnicities are wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

The Mormons claim the Garden of Eden was in northwestern Missouri near Independence, Missouri.

mrm.org/eden

They can tell us where the Garden of Eden was, but can’t find out where the events of the Book of Mormon took place. They can’t even agree where the Hill Cumorah was located though their early teachings make in clear it was near Palmyra, New York.

I am afraid my point was obscured by the fact, unknown to me, that Mormons think that the geographical location of Eden has been revealed. The modern geographical location of Eden is revealed in neither Catholic Tradition nor Scripture. But why do we need to know what God hasn’t revealed? Of course, we don’t.

The Latter-day Saints can as correctly say that God hasn’t revealed the modern locations of events in the Book of Mormon. They are in the same position which we claim with regards to the Garden of Eden. It is no problem at all from an LDS or Catholic perspective that God has left some things unknown to us. This omission of information is not significant to truth claims.

Rory

 

[soren1]

I am afraid my point was obscured by the fact, unknown to me, that Mormons think that the geographical location of Eden has been revealed. The modern geographical location of Eden is revealed in neither Catholic Tradition nor Scripture. But why do we need to know what God hasn’t revealed? Of course, we don’t.

The Latter-day Saints can as correctly say that God hasn’t revealed the modern locations of events in the Book of Mormon. They are in the same position which we claim with regards to the Garden of Eden. It is no problem at all from an LDS or Catholic perspective that God has left some things unknown to us. This omission of information is not significant to truth claims.

Rory

You make an important point here, Rory. We should not assume a stance of skepticism when examining Mormon claims, but the exact opposite: they should be given the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. This is necessary for justice, since we ourselves must claim the benefit of the doubt in defending our faith. The best way to avoid double-standards is to give others a liberal standard. Besides, skepticism is the default position of atheists, not Catholics.

Having said that, a moderate criticism of LDS geographical theories should be part of our basic apologetic, because LDS apologetics does emphasize Mesoamerican archaeological evidence. Because many Mormons think that such evidence is powerful, it is important to be able to show why it is not, especially when one can show that the findings of Mormon archaeology are actually harmful the Mormon case precisely because they are too concentrated in Mesoamerica. It is clear from the Zelph revelation that Cumorah is on the East Coast of the U.S. (It is not a revelation in the Standard Works, but Joseph Smith cannot be held trustworthy if it is false.) By examining the evidence of Zelph, Joseph Fielding Smith logically concluded that “In the light of revelation it is absurd for anyone to maintain that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess this northern land.” Why, this leads me to ask, have Mormon archaeologists all but abandoned the North in their quest for evidence? Does not the great disparity in quantities of evidence surprise us? How does a big population that included the East Coast and Mesoamerica manage to leave ponderous evidence in only one of those places and none elsewhere? The more evidence they find down South, the more aggravating that last question becomes, since each “discovery” in Mesoamerica increases the disparity in the distribution of evidence which is not what we should expect if the Nephite civilization existed. This doesn’t prove anything, but it turns the probabilities strongly against the Mormons on the basis of their own research.

The other thing that is worth doing is research in the actual societies that existed in the areas where the Nephites are thought to have lived. Instead of making a purely negative argument like, “You have no evidence that there were Nephites in America,” you could instead say, “We do have evidence of non-Nephites filling the land.” Again, it is only a probable argument, but as such it can neutralize the claims of Mormon archaeologists, which are also based on probable arguments.

 

[zerinus]

Where was the Garden of Eden? I am not LDS, but I don’t see why they need to p(name removed by moderator)oint the locations on the modern map for the allegorical or historical events depicted in the Book of Mormon.

I am afraid my point was obscured by the fact, unknown to me, that Mormons think that the geographical location of Eden has been revealed. The modern geographical location of Eden is revealed in neither Catholic Tradition nor Scripture. But why do we need to know what God hasn’t revealed? Of course, we don’t.

The Latter-day Saints can as correctly say that God hasn’t revealed the modern locations of events in the Book of Mormon. They are in the same position which we claim with regards to the Garden of Eden. It is no problem at all from an LDS or Catholic perspective that God has left some things unknown to us. This omission of information is not significant to truth claims.

Rory

Thank you Roy; your observations and comments are entirely correct and logical, as indeed the Lord has said:

Deuteronomy 29:

29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

You make an important point here, Rory. We should not assume a stance of skepticism when examining Mormon claims, but the exact opposite: they should be given the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. This is necessary for justice, since we ourselves must claim the benefit of the doubt in defending our faith. The best way to avoid double-standards is to give others a liberal standard. Besides, skepticism is the default position of atheists, not Catholics.

Having said that, a moderate criticism of LDS geographical theories should be part of our basic apologetic, because LDS apologetics does emphasize Mesoamerican archaeological evidence.

I don’t know what you mean by “LDS apologetics”. The Church does not officially take any stand on Book of Mormon geography, and does not attempt to proselytize on the basis of any supposed geographical or archaeological evidence. If Mormon scholars want to express various opinions about BoM geography, or debate and argue about it, they are entitled to do so; but that has nothing to do with the Church’s official position. The official position of the Church with regard to the Book of Mormon is that its truth claims can only be recognized and verified by the witness of the Holy Spirit, not by archaeological or geographical evidence.

Because many Mormons think that such evidence is powerful, it is important to be able to show why it is not, …

Who are those “Mormons”? I am not one, and I don’t know of any others either!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am afraid my point was obscured by the fact, unknown to me, that Mormons think that the geographical location of Eden has been revealed. The modern geographical location of Eden is revealed in neither Catholic Tradition nor Scripture. But why do we need to know what God hasn’t revealed? Of course, we don’t.

The Latter-day Saints can as correctly say that God hasn’t revealed the modern locations of events in the Book of Mormon. They are in the same position which we claim with regards to the Garden of Eden. It is no problem at all from an LDS or Catholic perspective that God has left some things unknown to us. This omission of information is not significant to truth claims.

Rory

Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

2866 "By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of God created man, the Church celebrates the mystery of the Garden of Eden, which day is the first day of the week appropriately called the Lord’s Day or Sunday. By tradition the Church has always taught that the Garden of Eden is located in Central Texas.36

36 Stanmaxkolbe; Encyclical on Garden of Eden cira 2008.

(xavierlives made me do it)

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

2866 "By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of God created man, the Church celebrates the mystery of the Garden of Eden, which day is the first day of the week appropriately called the Lord’s Day or Sunday. By tradition the Church has always taught that the Garden of Eden is located in Central Texas.36

36 Stanmaxkolbe; Encyclical on Garden of Eden cira 2008.

(xavierlives made me do it)

Hmmmm. Thank you for letting me know about this in January when I am planning my vacation schedule. Eden…here we come!

Thank you very much Rebecca J, for updating me on this revealed truth. As for its implications for Mormons, I now need to think of something that is actually unknown to Catholics, to highlight the fact that like us, Mormons think God has willingly left some things unrevealed to them. How about the winner of Alabama vs. Texas (I suppose also known as “Eden University”)? Do Catholics know if Eden is going to win tonight?

 

[benidict]

Some Mormons say the Great Lakes area. Some Mormons limit it to Central America. Why can’t the Mormons tell us where the Book of Mormon peoples lived? Where do you as a Mormon think they lived?

i firmly believe they lived…in the prophet joseph smiths head.

 

[ParkerD]

Were these documented interviews?

I have no doubt that there may have been rogue individuals that destroyed artifacts/architecture, but I find it hard to believe that this was sanctioned. Especially by the Smithsonian.

With regard to the mounds being destroyed. Many of these mounds are located in areas close to large rivers and lakes. Nature itself has destroyed many of them, and man just finished the process. The mounds near Ashland Ky, are a prime example of this.

Also, many of these mounds are on privately owned land, and controlled by their owners, and not a museum or park service.

“Most of the mounds in Mississippi, however, are on privately owned land. As a result, many mounds have been irreparably damaged or completely destroyed by modern development and looting.”

or

“Of the 23 mounds originally present, four were destroyed and several others reduced to remnants by agriculture and excessive grazing prior to the site’s acquisition as a state park.”
nps.gov/nr//travel/mounds/textonly.htm

and

Another regional site is the Forest Home Farm Site Complex in South Portsmouth, Kentucky about 33 miles west of Ashland, Kentucky. It is across the river from Portsmouth, Ohio in Greenup and Lewis Counties, Kentucky. This site is located on a family owned farm. You must have permission to visit it."
library.thinkquest.org/CR0212160/Regional%20History.htm

Again, I don’t doubt that these things have been destroyed, that is obvious. What isn’t obvious is that it was sanctioned in any way by the Smithsonian.

If these “interviews” weren’t documented, they are just hearsay, and carry little to no weight at all.

Twopekinguys,
This past Thursday I watched segments of the interviews I had written about, but had misunderstood about what those interviews indicated. They talked about two divergent views about the Native Americans, and that artifacts that showed an existence of an advanced culture were not taken seriously, since John Wesley Powell had an agenda to promote regarding the Native Americans needing to be assimilated into the American culture as the “natural progression” from a “primitive” stage of their society and culture. The mathematical and astronomical designs of such things as the mounds and calendars did not contribute to that opinion, so no serious attention was paid to those remnant architectures and artifacts. Some artifacts showed close similarity to Hebrew cultural symbols such as the symbol for God and for heaven–but no way would John Wesley Powell allow those kinds of artifacts to be brought forward and placed into prominent view in museums. So your comment about “hearsay” was partly correct. Thanks.