Where did YOU get your authority?

[NonCatholic]

If you had bothered to read my post, I said that I probably should have reviewed your statement again. *Your problem is that you copied and pasted one man’s opinion (from: Have you clicked this link - I have no idea what this site is…maybe another poster?..or wrong link??www.gracebiblefellowship-tx.org/Sermons) ***as if it were fact.

I didn’t say there were only Apostles there. Again You said it was directed to the Apostles?? – he was speaking to the authority of the Church, - not the individual. He never says, “Decide on your own what to do with this sinful brother.”
To deny that is to deny the text and add things that just aren’t there.

Don’t really understand the question, be here goes. An individual is not the Church. Your brand of “Lone Ranger Christianity” is not only NOT encouraged in scripture – we are warned against it.

As St. Paul said in 1 Cor. 12:20-26:
***But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. ***
***The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” ******nor ******again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.” ***
***Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. ******If (one) part suffers, ******all ******the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, ******all ***the parts share its joy.

Do** you? Which body of Christ do you belong to? The one Jesus established 2000 years ago or one that was set up by a man less than a**** hundred**** years ago (Matt. 16:18)? What church are you affiliated with because your profile says, **“none-Personal relationship with Jesus Christ”.

I will try to clarify.

1. The church (collectively) is the body of believers, with each believer being an individual and Christ Jesus as the head.
2. The context of Matthew 18 is “church discipline”, start with the individual going one-on-one to a sinning brother or sister, then to 2-3 individuals to the sinning individual, then to the whole congregation if necessary, then if that doesn’t work, then they are removed from the church assembly. How they are removed from the assembly probably varies from one church to another. To separate what is spoken to apostles specifically and indicating it does not apply to all believers, like in Matthew 16, can…can lead to error. There are cases where it applies only to the apostles, like the miraculous signs and wonders that are part of the Apostolic era.

I hope this clarifies a little and we can move on to the topic at hand.

 

[NonCatholic]

I do. I know that you have called the WORD of God “Deceit”. Never! I love God’s word. But Jesus is not a lie, or a “deceit”. So perhaps you are calling me a liar instead? Or both of us? What is it? Neither…forgive me if you think that? What is the post# on the deceit thing?

And Steve, thanks for your analysis and opinion. I’m not particularly worked up about the constant attacks on Catholics, which in my experience is almost always done in ignorance. Attacking Jesus gets me going tho’. I agree 100% And if there is any whiff of that, then I want to set the record straight. If someone is simply calling ME a liar, well, I know I’m not one & they’re the one that is utterly uncharitable & unChristian. I agree 100% I am sorry for them but limited in what sort of difference I can make in their understanding.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I do. I know that you have called the WORD of God “Deceit”. Never! I love God’s word. But Jesus is not a lie, or a “deceit”. So perhaps you are calling me a liar instead? Or both of us? What is it? Neither…forgive me if you think that? What is the post# on the deceit thing?

The post where you quoted me and then wrote “deceit” appears to have been removed by the moderator. We do not comment or speculate on moderator action but perhaps there is no need to explain it to you? Indeed I am at a loss to understand why you are asking the question.

It was a response to another post of mine, which is still within this thread, and which has been commented on by other posters. I’m sure you can locate it if you make the attempt.

The point of my post is that the WORD of God is not just something printed in a book, Jesus Himself is also referred to as the WORD of God. The WORD of God is a PERSON. I find it difficult to understand why anyone would make the comment you originally made and now appear to want to retract.

 

[elvisman]

I will try to clarify.

1. The church (collectively) is the body of believers, with each believer being an individual and Christ Jesus as the head.
2. The context of Matthew 18 is “church discipline”, start with the individual going one-on-one to a sinning brother or sister, then to 2-3 individuals to the sinning individual, then to the whole congregation if necessary, then if that doesn’t work, then they are removed from the church assembly. How they are removed from the assembly probably varies from one church to another. To separate what is spoken to apostles specifically and indicating it does not apply to all believers, like in Matthew 16, can…can lead to error. There are cases where it applies only to the apostles, like the miraculous signs and wonders that are part of the Apostolic era.

I hope this clarifies a little and we can move on to the topic at hand.

You said it was directed to the Apostles??

When did I say it was only directed to the Apostles? Read the post again.

I hope this clarifies a little and we can move on to the topic at hand.

We are discussing the topic at hand. It all has to do with where you get your authority. So far, you haven**'t shown one.**
**No, this doesn’t clarify - it only confuses the issue again – as does ALL Protestantism because of varying belief systems. **

You still haven’t answered the question(s) – which are very topical:
Which*** body of Christ do you belong to? The one Jesus established 2000 years ago or one that was set up by a man less than a****** hundred****** years ago (Matt. 16:18)? What church are you affiliated with because your profile says, “none-Personal relationship with Jesus Christ”?***

 

[Stephen168]

You still haven’t answered the question(s) – which are very topical:
Which*** body of Christ do you belong to? The one Jesus established 2000 years ago or one that was set up by a man less than a****** hundred****** years ago (Matt. 16:18)? What church are you affiliated with because your profile says, “none-Personal relationship with Jesus Christ”?***

I’ve been waiting for that answer since post #85

 

[NonCatholic]

The post where you quoted me and then wrote “deceit” appears to have been removed by the moderator. We do not comment or speculate on moderator action but perhaps there is no need to explain it to you? Indeed I am at a loss to understand why you are asking the question.

It was a response to another post of mine, which is still within this thread, and which has been commented on by other posters. I’m sure you can locate it if you make the attempt.

The point of my post is that the WORD of God is not just something printed in a book, Jesus Himself is also referred to as the WORD of God. The WORD of God is a PERSON. I find it difficult to understand why anyone would make the comment you originally made and now appear to want to retract.

That explains why I couldn’t find the post when I went to look for it, usually if the moderator removes something you get an nice email.

I remember typing the word, thinking it I posted to the person I sent some information from some noncatholic sites in reference to some topics they said they were interested in knowing more about. When I perceived much contrary to the email I sent…I felt I was deceived by this person…so I wrote “deceit”

I deleted my sent and inbox folders on a regular basis, so I must have mistaken you for someone else and I apologize to you and the others that post offended. This is my fault and I take full responsibility. I ask for your forgiveness.

 

[MelanieAnne]

That explains why I couldn’t find the post when I went to look for it, usually if the moderator removes something you get an nice email.

I remember typing the word, thinking it I posted to the person I sent some information from some noncatholic sites in reference to some topics they said they were interested in knowing more about. When I perceived contrary to the email I sent…I felt I was deceived the person’s sincerity…so I wrote “deceit”

I deleted my sent and inbox folders on a regular basis, so I must have mistaken you for someone else and I apologize to you and the others in this post that took offense. This is my fault and I take full responsibility.

Just so you know, I will never ask you to provide me with information from nonCatholic sites. I have the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself to rely on for answers for any questions.

 

[look3467]

I hope you realize what you are saying.
because what you are really saying is this: it is not God’s way it is my way. the secular and modernist mindset.

it does not make any sense for you to be using Sacred Scripture. it was written long ago.

**
Pray for the Church throughout the world. Pray for our Catholics priests and lay people who are being persecuted in many places.**

Wisdomseeker,

The spirit of God is in the scriptures. For they direct thee to life in Jesus.

Therefore, to use scripture as my foundation that led me to life, I must share.

Knowledge + understanding = wisdom.

The book of knowledge, bible, is a compilation of words in story pictures and actual real life happenings which without understanding, renders it unprofitable.

Pray, that with knowledge, understanding is gained and the wisdom to apply it.

Wisdom seeker must first acquire understanding from the knowledge given (the word of God) and then apply it with wisdom.

The Bible, Gods inspired words are alive with the fire of God, that when read, understood, and applied, wisdom is God in you.

Please don’t take it wrong on how I am explaining it, it is not demeaning your understanding on the knowledge you have, but to stress to you the importance of the scriptures.

The Catholic Church is a temple made with hands where one can go, have fellowship and find God to worship as are all other denominations main objectives.

The true spirit of the Church of Christ is found in you and I, and there is where wisdom is applied.

Buildings are one place, the church of Christ is everywhere in the hearts of mankind.

Scripture points all that out.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Stephen168]

The spirit of God is in the scriptures. For they direct thee to life in Jesus.

Therefore, to use scripture as my foundation that led me to life, I must share.

The foundation of the New Testament is the Catholic Church

Buildings are one place, the church of Christ is everywhere in the hearts of mankind.

Is this in scripture?

 

[look3467]

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

The story behind this verse is that to all Jews, there was but one place of worship, and that was at the temple of Jerusalem.

If one was outside of Jerusalem in another city the requirement was to journey to Jerusalem to worship.

But Jesus was explaining to this woman that when the time cometh (meaning after His resurrection) that the place where God was going to reside was not in a temple made with hands, as in the Jerusalem temple, but in the temple of the heart.

That being the case, the Kingdom of God is within us.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Where is it?

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

As for your second question: Yes, The Catholic Church was used mightily by God as a vessel to bring about the written word.

You see, the written word works to lead believers to liberty in Jesus, as the head of it.

Anything placed in human hands is subject to corruption.

Governments throughout History attest to that.

Churches are no exceptions.

The bible gives the individual knowledge of the freedom that is in Jesus requiring no identification with any particular organization.

If you have the love of God in you, you will be known as He is known.

That is the true kingdom in you.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sorry Gabriel but your argument holds no water. Aramaic may have been what Christ spoke but the Gospels are written in Greek. If Matthew wanted to tell us the church was built on Peter then he would have said on thee Petros. He simply doesn’t do this. Study the Greek more and you will understand. Speculating on what the Aramaic may have said is just that. Pure speculation. The fact remains we have no manuscript of Matthew or any Gospel in Aramaic.

Gabriel of 12;
Very interesting post NDfan. By reading your post, are you of the belief that Mathew literally wrote his gospel word for word? Can you explain why the book of acts written by Luke, would record the aramaic name “CEPHAS” which means “Rock” where “Paul” addresses “Peter” by this Aramaic name “Rock” or “Cephas”?

The authority I hold to gave us the bible books (cannon) with apostolic authority to do so which is the Catholic church today. The authority you hold to is your own interpretation, or authority that comes 1500 years after the Catholic church who believes from a bible that is missing 7 books of the bible canonized since the 4th century.

NDfan;
That’s ridiculous. All Christians were persecuted as well as all church leaders. Killing the Bishop of Rome would not have stopped the spread of Christianity. Where do you get this rubbish

Gabriel of 12:
Only from you, for that is not my comment. My comment was history records that pagan Rome sought after the Successor of Peter believing Christianity would get suppressed. I dont know if your familiar with Greek mythology, but “if the head is cut off the body will not survive”. History records every Pope thereafter Peter and his apostolic successors. Did you know many of the Christians that were martyred for the unfailing belief in the Eucharist? And for attending the Catholic Mass?

NDfan;
Try reading? I can assure my education is quite sufficient. Talk about word gymnastics. You have to twist and bend scripture to justify your position. Try reading scripture from the original Greek and let if flow the way it should. Not connecting this verse and that verse like connect the dots to make your final picture look real.

Gabriel of 12;
I do read the gospel as the original authors believed, This is aquired by Apostolic sacred Tradition, which you do not follow, so it lends to your misinterpretation of the original mind set when the Gospels were recorded. By refusing Apostolic Tradition, you have no choice but reach at your own interpetation from the letters on a page. Tell me, can your Church faith survive without the letters on the page of the bible? and remain unchanged for 2000 years?

NDfan;
Not sure what you are saying here. No disrespect Gabriel but I’ve read many of your posts and your theology is lacking just a little.

PEACE

Gabriel of 12:
Oh, my theology lacks in every area if I make it my own as Protestants and non catholics do;, but where my theology never fails is the same one that comes from the “Rock” of Peter. This theology will be contested in every age, but it will never be moved by any new wind of doctrines or teachings.

 

[SteveGC]

AJ,

You seem like a very upright, honest man.

Now…in all honesty AJ, can you tell us where you learned the interpretation of all these many bible verses you are listing and explaining to us?

Think back, AJ. When and where did you learn the interpretations that you are now passing along to us to defend your positions?

In all my honesty, AJ…I don’t think you learned them by first consulting your bible with a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Sure, I believe you’ve developed your understanding over a long time, over many years. And I know you may say it’s been your life experiences and devotion to God that have taught you all this. But the main impetus of your understanding of these verses, if you were to be honest with us, came from somewhere else. All I’d like you to do is tell us whether you came up with them all on your own (with the Holy Spirit as your guide)…or…if you first learned them from men, from a church somewhere…or a compilation of many churches or men over the course of many years.

Think for awhile, and let us know your answer when you’re ready.

Thanks…and God Bless.

 

[elvisman]

Sorry Gabriel but your argument holds no water. Aramaic may have been what Christ spoke but the Gospels are written in Greek. If Matthew wanted to tell us the church was built on Peter then he would have said on thee Petros. He simply doesn’t do this. Study the Greek more and you will understand. Speculating on what the Aramaic may have said is just that. Pure speculation. The fact remains we have no manuscript of Matthew or any Gospel in Aramaic.

That’s ridiculous. All Christians were persecuted as well as all church leaders. Killing the Bishop of Rome would not have stopped the spread of Christianity. Where do you get this rubbish

Try reading? I can assure my education is quite sufficient. Talk about word gymnastics. You have to twist and bend scripture to justify your position. Try reading scripture from the original Greek and let if flow the way it should. Not connecting this verse and that verse like connect the dots to make your final picture look real.

Not sure what you are saying here. No disrespect Gabriel but I’ve read many of your posts and your theology is lacking just a little.

PEACE

Oh – okay. . . Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan Augustine and a host of other Early Church Fathers are wrong because the Protestants of the 21st century disagree?

---

**Although we have some very ancient fragments and writings, we have no original manuscripts. Does that mean that the New Testament is a hoax? Sorry – that is flawed logic. Whether or not the gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic doesn’t depend on the original manuscript existing. And I the debate is anything but over. **

---

Many scholars believe – and Jerome was one of them – that Matthew’s text included many “Aramaicisms” and clear Aramaic word structure that can only have happened with a translation from Aramaic to Greek. This makes sense to them because Matthew’s Gospel seems to have been directed to people who primarily spoke Aramaic – as Jesus did.

---

**PS **– I hear the Irish are getting the #1 high school running back in the nation next year. We’ll get’em then!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdomseeker,

The spirit of God is in the scriptures. For they direct thee to life in Jesus.

here is a prayer for you. Eternal and Faithfull God open my ears, eyes and mouth that i may hear, see, and speak the Truth lest i lead others into err. i dont want to be deceived any longer. pray this until the Mercyfull One hears you. pray with humility. dont come to our Lord as if you know everything.

Wisdom seeker must first acquire understanding from the knowledge given (the word of God) and then apply it with wisdom.

our knowledge comes from those who were entrusted with the Truth of our Lord. otherwise, i would also have to discard all the teachings of the Apostles. remember they were men just like you. nevertheless our Lord assured them not to be afraid because the Spirit would direct them and those who were chosen by them.
my friend you are in serious trouble being outside the Church.

The Bible, Gods inspired words are alive with the fire of God, that when read, understood, and applied, wisdom is God in you.

except when used to argue against the Church built by Christ.

Please don’t take it wrong on how I am explaining it, it is not demeaning your understanding on the knowledge you have, but to stress to you the importance of the scriptures.

and i should stress to you the importance of what Jesus said. “and you are Peter and upon this rock I will built my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” My Body is food indeed and my Blood is drink indeed." the Blood of the new Covenant made with His Church. Very serious indeed my friend. the Church came out of the mouth of the Master and not from people reading the SS.

The Catholic Church is a temple made with hands where one can go, have fellowship and find God to worship as are all other denominations main objectives.

is it what Jesus said for us to do?. Pick up your Bibles and go your merry ways. i will make sure each one of you will have different enterpretation. i dont think so. the visible building it is very important to God. it is the place of True worship to Him. it is part of the Kingdom of God.

The true spirit of the Church of Christ is found in you and I, and there is where wisdom is applied.

dont understand what you are trying to say here.

Buildings are one place, the church of Christ is everywhere in the hearts of mankind

.

He is also in the Temple. remember when He called My Father’s House to the thieves?

Scripture points all that out.

What Scriptures?

**

Pray for the True Church. She is attacked by all sides.**

 

[look3467]

AJ,

You seem like a very upright, honest man.

Now…in all honesty AJ, can you tell us where you learned the interpretation of all these many bible verses you are listing and explaining to us?

Think back, AJ. When and where did you learn the interpretations that you are now passing along to us to defend your positions?

In all my honesty, AJ…I don’t think you learned them by first consulting your bible with a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Sure, I believe you’ve developed your understanding over a long time, over many years. And I know you may say it’s been your life experiences and devotion to God that have taught you all this. But the main impetus of your understanding of these verses, if you were to be honest with us, came from somewhere else. All I’d like you to do is tell us whether you came up with them all on your own (with the Holy Spirit as your guide)…or…if you first learned them from men, from a church somewhere…or a compilation of many churches or men over the course of many years.

Think for awhile, and let us know your answer when you’re ready.

Thanks…and God Bless.

Knowledge is readily available in the written word in other writings besides the bible.
When one has studied the bible for many years there are questions concerning certain scriptures that are not necessarily clear in understanding.

God speaks through other written works of mankind, such as bible commentary’s, books on particular subjects and through secular books.

I’m sure you have read books on various subjects written by Catholic clergy and secular writers.

God is limited only by mankind thoughts, but He speaks o s in many ways.

Like I mentioned before, I searched into many different beliefs in the attempt to find Gods view of all of us and what was the common thread that would bind us all together.

That journey had to be experienced in order to come to my present understanding.

Th bible I found out is complete in its message about the works of God.

Mankind has taken bits and pieces of it and clouded the real message by injecting it’s own interpretations.

The message prevalent through out the whole of the bible is what God has done in four parts:

1. Introduction =how He did it : creation of Adam(male and female)
   Ref:Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
2. The Fall = Gods making mankind in His image (as like gods) by the gaining of knowledge of good and evil.
   Ref:Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Knowledge brought separation= introduces death.

1. Th judgment=condemnation and sentencing
2. Death/salvation
   Ref.Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

These four parts are repeated many times in the bible and in each one of our lives.

But the center piece of all of it is in the day Jesus died on the cross.

From the eve, sundown, 6pm Friday the lords supper commences the four part works of Christ giving notice:

1. IntroductionRef:Jhn 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
2. The Fall 12 midnight to 6am sunrise, Jesus at the garden accepts the will of the Father: sins of the world: arrested.

3.The Judgment 6am sunrise to 12 noon, Jesus is tried in front of 4 courts and condemned and sentenced to death.

1. Death/Salvation Jesus, a prince declared King, is crucified for the salvation of all mankind.

The Jewish people, Judas and the High priests were partners with Christ in the redemption of the world.
Ref:Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Those is the four fold plan of God works in creation and salvation.

By understanding it, we find Gods unconditional love excercised upon all mankind.

peace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

So AJ, in short, your answer would be this…*it doesn’t matter where I learned something first…all that matters is that I believe in God, and His Son…and I I believe in the sole-sufficiency of the Bible, as it leads me into full understanding of Him…**even if *I formulate some of my opinions or get support from secular books and bible commentaries from uninspired men who have their own opinions about scripture…and as long as I believe in these four fundamental things about God’s plan. Because I’ve lived long enough to have multiple experiences in my life, and I am now blessed to have all this understanding, and so long as I continue to live a life of Godly love, this is all I need.

Am I off base with any of this, AJ? Now, don’t get me wrong…I absolutely think you are a faithful man, and that there is some real holiness to the way you lead your life. But, there just seems to be some contradictory messages you are sending us.

First, you hold fast solely to the Bible for your full understanding. Next you say God also speaks through other uninspired authors (commentaries/books) to help us clearly see the efficacy and sole-sufficiency of the Bible.

I’m not sure you can have it both ways. Actually, you should have it a completely different way, but you know my opinion on that already. But regardless of that, how do you justify this explanation of the use of sources outside the Bible, if the Bible is all you need, as you have said?

Also, do you find it strange that you don’t accept the interpretations from Catholic commentaries or books, even though they can be backed with Scripture? You certainly seem to put alot of faith in other non-Catholic publications, even to the point of allowing them to teach you about Scripture.

See…this is my point, AJ. You’re not learning from the Bible alone. You are learning from a combination of the Bible, and human interpretations. And actually, you would have to admit you put more emphasis on the latter, since Scripture often does not reveal itself clearly.

In other words…you are putting an abundant amout of your faith into what other men have taught. And my question is, how do you know you can (and should) trust these many different men? Is it because you’ve proven their views from Scripture? If that’s your answer, I would hope you see the problem with that. Anyone can take scripture verses, skew the context, and formulate a very convincing set of beliefs from it. Happens all the time. So, is it not a perilous thing to put your trust in men who come to you with NO AUTHORITY TO TEACH?

God Bless

 

[look3467]

no. the Spirit was given to the Apostles to teach all who came to believe and obey the Apostles whom our Lord ordained and sent. these were men chosen by our Lord. they were entrusted with the Truth. and they entrusted others to continue their work. your individuality is keeping you from seeing the Truth. “Faith comes from hear and hear the Word of God.” and not reading it. you are adding to the Word>>>Wisdomseeker

True, the Holy Spirit descended upon them at the upper room along with others of 120.Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit then searches the hearts and deals with them accordingly.

You might want to reconsider your words quote" obey the apostles"as if they had the right to determine your souls fate.

Even Jesus judged not:Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Even Paul said:1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

What Paul was trying to say is that unless: Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Again, unless the heart is changed by the Holy Spirit fire,no Apostle, priest’s words will fall on deaf ears.

pride and disobedience lead one to convince himself that he is right while he is in err.>>>Wisdomseeker

Pride as in my independent knowledge, understanding and wisdom in the scriptures and not in the Catholic Church, you are saying?

Disobedience as in not accepting the Churches interpretation of scripture, your saying?

If you notice in all my posts that I do not discriminate between beliefs, but rather encourage the love of God within those beliefs as a sign of Gods indwelling in them.

God’s love is limitless, limited only by our own minds.

here is a prayer for you. Eternal and Faithfull God open my ears, eyes and mouth that i may hear, see, and speak the Truth lest i lead others into err. i dont want to be deceived any longer. pray this until the Mercyfull One hears you. pray with humility. dont come to our Lord as if you know everything.>>>Wisdomseeker

Did you notice that my suggestion prayer indicated no condemnation? But rather to pray for understanding?

our knowledge comes from those who were entrusted with the Truth of our Lord. otherwise, i would also have to discard all the teachings of the Apostles. remember they were men just like you. nevertheless our Lord assured them not to be afraid because the Spirit would direct them and those who were chosen by them.
my friend you are in serious trouble being outside the Church.>>>Wisdom seeker

I get my knowledge from them too but the stirring if from the Holy Spirit who gives me understandings.

Am I being judged as condemned for being a non-member?

The true spirit of the Church of Christ is found in you and I, and there is where wisdom is applied.>>>AJ

dont understand what you are trying to say here. >>>wisdomseeker

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The temple where Jesus resides is in you! That is where His church is (His Spirit) and where understanding and wisdom
lies.

He is also in the Temple. remember when He called My Father’s House to the thieves?>>>wisdomseeker

As you know that temple was also destroyed?

What is the spiritual message Jesus was indicating?

Could it be that mankind were using the name of God in trafficking in business? Hmmm!

Den of thieves money changers?

You see, the temple in Jerusalem was just a picture of the real temple of God, being in the hearts of mankind, a spiritual church.

What Scriptures?>>>wsdomseeker

Are you at liberty to read, and ask God directly for understanding apart from the Catholic Church?

Otherwise, we have eyes but can not see, have ears but can not hear to what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

So AJ, in short, your answer would be this…it doesn’t matter where I learned something first…all that matters is that I believe in God, and His Son…and I I believe in the sole-sufficiency of the Bible, as it leads me into full understanding of Him…even if I formulate some of my opinions or get support from secular books and bible commentaries from uninspired men who have their own opinions about scripture…and as long as I believe in these four fundamental things about God’s plan. Because I’ve lived long enough to have multiple experiences in my life, and I am now blessed to have all this understanding, and so long as I continue to live a life of Godly love, this is all I need.>>>Steve

Yes, as is the average soul.

Or, should I be a Saint first?

Am I off base with any of this, AJ? Now, don’t get me wrong…I absolutely think you are a faithful man, and that there is some real holiness to the way you lead your life. But, there just seems to be some contradictory messages you are sending us.

First, you hold fast solely to the Bible for your full understanding. Next you say God also speaks through other uninspired authors (commentaries/books) to help us clearly see the efficacy and sole-sufficiency of the Bible.>>>Steve

Your not limiting God to your understanding of how God should reach the hearts of mankind are you?

Even if humanity had not a word at all about God, nature, and the cosmos would indicate a higher spirit than one’s own.

Paul addressed it like this:Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Question? By what spirit were these folks motivated to worship the unknown God?Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Definitely, the Spirit of God is everywhere, in the cosmos, the animal kingdom, nature itself and to see God in all of that, God has to open our spiritual eyes.

…since Scripture often does not reveal itself clearly.>>>Steve

Yes, true, but what is the Holy Spirit’s responsibility?

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again, unless the Holy Spirit opens our spiritual eyes, the bible will be mere words.

I

n other words…you are putting an abundant amount of your faith into what other men have taught. And my question is, how do you know you can (and should) trust these many different men? Is it because you’ve proven their views from Scripture? If that’s your answer, I would hope you see the problem with that. Anyone can take scripture verses, skew the context, and formulate a very convincing set of beliefs from it. Happens all the time. So, is it not a perilous thing to put your trust in men who come to you with NO AUTHORITY TO TEACH?>>Steve

First, I place all my faith in Jesus first, and trust he He will not lead me astray.
Second, I’ve studied His word because I became genuinely interested in Him and desired to learn all could.
Third, He secures my soul allowing me to leave the principals of salvation and progress unto the meat of the word.
Fourth, He has met all my concerns about the plight of all humanity, the fate of the various beliefs, and given me to understand how in Jesus He accomplished it.
Fifth, He showed me that His love is what causes all to exist and how our love is generated in the midst of a dark and divided world.

And yes, God speaks through the secular, if we have eyes to see Him it it.

If you take the image of God out of mankind, the rendering are robots.
Hence: God is dormant in every soul which begs to be discovered.

Preach, teach and instruct on the things of God, the love of God and you will see the Holy Spirit stir the hearts of mankind.

What would you do first if you and another person were stranded on an Island and the other didn’t know anything about God?

Would you educate him on who, what God is, and how God relates to him, or would you say, you must belong to the Catholic Church to gain knowledge, true knowledge f who God is?

If by your testimony, God stirs His heart, then he ill become receptive to what you have to say, and the Holy Spirit will give him understanding commensurate with his ability to receive.

After that, if he follows you to your church, then you would have done him a good service.

But first, God has to activate the seed of faith that is in each one of us via His Holy Spirit.

And finally, if my faith is in Christ, I am secure in my salvation and nothing can take me away from Him.

Therefore, I am free to explore the length and depth of God’s glory with great joy.

Pace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

Yes, as is the average soul. Or, should I be a Saint first?

If you are referring to canonized Saint, of course not. But you don’t believe in that anyway, so I assume you were being sarcastic there. And I’m not trying to relay points about your salvation here, I’m revealing to you that you have chosen to a great extent to follow the teachings of man, regardless of your devotion to the Bible.

Your not limiting God to your understanding of how God should reach the hearts of mankind are you? Even if humanity had not a word at all about God, nature, and the cosmos would indicate a higher spirit than one’s own.

Of course I don’t limit God, AJ, but I offer to you that God, in all his unlimited ways, does not teach (in all these ways) specifically that which we must know to be united to Him. He does not reveal through the cosmos and nature and the secular author how we come to cooperate with our covenantal gift. This is left to vested teaching authority (which isn’t the Bible either, despite it’s incredible and sacred usefulness to all).

I do not debate the capacity of God to reveal His existence and true essence to all His creation in countless ways, no matter where or when or what. But His essence, His existence, His Love…these things are distinct from His revealed truths about salvation and Christianity. From nature and the cosmos and the secular world, one can only *reflect upon *previously gained knowledge about these truths…one cannot *originally obtain *them from those environments.

Yes, true, but what is the Holy Spirit’s responsibility?

I cannot debate this with you, only because you must first come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is Christ-made. The Holy Spirit’s responsibility (as you say) is to be with The Church, and through the Church, with all who call upon His name. Not that you have to be Catholic. But you have to understand that the Holy Spirit first came upon Apostles who subsequently were instructed to teach, and were given a leader (Peter) upon whom He built His Church, and that same Holy Spirit was promised to The Church to protect it through all time from the gates of Hell. As I’ve clarified in previous posts, the Holy Spirit does much in the individual, but it never used as a private interpreter of Scripture without some sort of Christ-appointed authority to first teach scripture.

First, I place all my faith in Jesus first, and trust he He will not lead me astray.

Truly wonderful

Second, I’ve studied His word because I became genuinely interested in Him and desired to learn all could.

Absolutely fantastic

Third, He secures my soul allowing me to leave the principals of salvation and progress unto the meat of the word.

Whoops. This is where you lose me. Meat of the word = Scripture? Well, again, we have to revisit the notion that you didn’t learn about your salvation originally from Scripture. You learned it from man, and then somehow convinced yourself (through man’s guidance) that their teaching was scriptural). This happened to most all of us, AJ. Especially those who lived before the 13th century or so…who didn’t have access to Bibles…nor the literacy to read them. But even today this is how it happens. One must first trust Christ (and subsequently trust His human authority on earth). There’s no way around it once you realize that we all have to trust some human authority somewhere.

Fourth, He has met all my concerns about the plight of all humanity, the fate of the various beliefs, and given me to understand how in Jesus He accomplished it.

Beautiful, except that I would suggest that, again, man is where you originally learned about the fate of various beliefs, whatever your beliefs happen to be, and then you backed it up with Scripture. Not saying your beliefs are wrong, just re-emphasizing the sequence of your learning.

Fifth, He showed me that His love is what causes all to exist and how our love is generated in the midst of a dark and divided world.

Awesome. Amen.

…continued

 

[SteveGC]

…continued from previous post…

What would you do first if you and another person were stranded on an Island and the other didn’t know anything about God? Would you say, you must belong to the Catholic Church to gain knowledge, true knowledge f who God is?

First? Baptism. Right there on the beach. No delay. Second? Educate him on God, His Love, the story of salvation and God’s plan as I have been taught. After that?
Must he belong to the Catholic Church? In a mysterious way, he already does through baptism. And if he comes to believe, have faith, and strive to obey? Even more so united to The Catholic Church. Our only regret on this island would be our lack of the Eucharist, which we would spiritually partake of through desire.
As for full knowledge of the truth…very difficult without sacramental grace, but quite possible through proper teaching, which I would undertake, guided as I would be by my own knowledge of the deposit of faith (through the Church).

It’s not a club, AJ. It’s a family of God…not confined to a building, or to Rome. That’s just how it manifests itself physically to the world…a visible sign on a hill (biblical).

If by your testimony, God stirs His heart, then he ill become receptive to what you have to say, and the Holy Spirit will give him understanding commensurate with his ability to receive. After that, if he follows you to your church, then you would have done him a good service. But first, God has to activate the seed of faith that is in each one of us via His Holy Spirit.

Agreed, within the context of my above statements. Seed of faith comes from the Holy Spirit through baptism. Faith grows (again with credit to the Holy Spirit) as the soul cooperates with that seed, lives in obedience, and learns from a Christ-vested teaching authority.

And finally, if my faith is in Christ, I am secure in my salvation and nothing can take me away from Him.

Yes, so long as your faith (and obedience) endure to the very end.

Therefore, I am free to explore the length and depth of God’s glory with great joy.

Amen.

God Bless, AJ