Where did YOU get your authority?

[NDfan]

WOW.

How long between Jesus leaving the earth and the writing of the first book of the New Testament?

Ralph potentially as little as 3 years

 

[ralphinal]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Enough is enough is it not?

Since you will not give a simple yes or no answer, I will and move on. No, scripture does not tell us everything Jesus said or did. Now, is there anything important about Jesus not explicitly stated in scripture?

No they could not make up doctrine…that was part of the error that Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, Jude and John warned against…it would be a different gospel. they could only teach that which God gave them via Jesus in the beginning, then the Holy Spirit.

Please read acts of the Apostles, starting with Chapter 15 and tell me if that fits your answer.

I thought Christ was the leader of the bunch.

He is. However, Jesus is not there physically answering question or telling the group what to do. Again, read Acts. Peter pronounces judgement on those who cheat the Church, Peter speaks for the 12, and so on. Jesus is the head of the Church, but until he returns, someone has to hold the rope.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph can I ask for a clarification?

In Revelation, there are names on the foundation of the New Jerusalem. Those names are the names of the Apostles. The Church is built on the Apostles, thus is Apostolic

Ralph potentially as little as 3 years

Yep. For the record, I am one who believes, for several reasons, that the NT was completed by 70 A.D. I know that that is not the popular “scholarly” view, but there are reasons to think it.

 

[NDfan]

In Revelation, there are names on the foundation of the New Jerusalem. Those names are the names of the Apostles. The Church is built on the Apostles, thus is Apostolic

Ok I thought that’s what you were asking but for some reason I wasn’t sure if you were being that obvious.

Yep. For the record, I am one who believes, for several reasons, that the NT was completed by 70 A.D. I know that that is not the popular “scholarly” view, but there are reasons to think it.

Yes there’s solid reasoning to believe that. Although revelation could be a little later depending on how long John stayed on Patmos.

 

[Stephen168]

From the perspective of the Pope being a great spiritual leader nothing.

I was thinking from the perspective that Christ started the Catholic Church.

Petros and Petra have 2 different meanings. If Christ wished to convey the church was built on Peter then he would have said “on thee petros”. Instead he said on this petra meaning the identity Peter just gave of Christ. The same word that is used in Hebrew to refer to GOD as rock is the equivalent of Petra which Christ used to build HIS church on. How in the world could the Christian church be built on a human being??? Talk about theatrics.

Historically, how is does this change anything?

 

[LilyM]

I was thinking from the perspective that Christ started the Catholic Church.

Historically, how is does this change anything?

True - He still gave Peter alone the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, asked Peter especially to ‘strengthen the brethren’ at the Last Supper, and asked Peter, of all the Apostles, most especially to take a leadership role (feed the lambs, meaning the laity, and sheep, meaning clergy).

It’s undeniable that Peter had a unique leadership role. It was his voice that silenced debate when the Apostles met in council in Acts, after all.

 

[NonCatholic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Enough is enough is it not?
Since you will not give a simple yes or no answer, I will and move on. No, scripture does not tell us everything Jesus said or did. Now, is there anything important about Jesus not explicitly stated in scripture? Is more than enough, enough? To your question? No.

Quote:
No they could not make up doctrine…that was part of the error that Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, Jude and John warned against.**.it would be a different gospel. they could only teach that which God gave them via Jesus in the beginning, then the Holy Spirit.
Please read acts of the Apostles, starting with Chapter 15 and tell me if that fits your answer. Please be specific as to what you want me to look at, there are 28 chapters in ACTS. Although I can answer the question because Scripture is real clear as to who the author is.**
Quote:
I thought Christ was the leader of the bunch.
He is. However, Jesus is not there physically answering question or telling the group what to do. Again, read Acts. Peter (Peter is not here physically either) pronounces judgment on those who cheat the Church, (I can pronounce judgment on anyone who rejects the gospel, just as you could)Peter speaks for the 12Right? (I guess that’s why Paul had to rebuke him), and so on. Jesus is the head of the Church, but until he returns, someone has to hold the rope. Probably why there are 10’s of thousands of preachers and teachers of the gospel and each individual believer is called to give an answer to the hope that is in them…just a thought.

---

Everyone else had a signature, so I thought I needed one too.

Ralph

 

[Stephen168]

True - He still gave Peter alone the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, asked Peter especially to ‘strengthen the brethren’ at the Last Supper, and asked Peter, of all the Apostles, most especially to take a leadership role (feed the lambs, meaning the laity, and sheep, meaning clergy).

It’s undeniable that Peter had a unique leadership role. It was his voice that silenced debate when the Apostles met in council in Acts, after all.

Exactly.

I’ve never understood protestants trying to undermined the Catholic understanding of Matthew 16:18 with some kind of desire to prove Catholicism was not started by Christ.
Historically, they would have to show there was no Catholic Church, and then prove their protestant church was started by Christ. Attacking the Catholic position doesn’t do anything for their position. Where was their church in 150AD?
Now if I was talking to an Orthodox Christian in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople then we could have a reason to talk about it, because their historical claim is the same as ours.

 

[believers]

Exactly.

I’ve never understood protestants trying to undermined the Catholic understanding of Matthew 16:18 with some kind of desire to prove Catholicism was not started by Christ.
Historically, they would have to show there was no Catholic Church, and then prove their protestant church was started by Christ. Attacking the Catholic position doesn’t do anything for their position. Where was their church in 150AD?
Now if I was talking to an Orthodox Christian in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople then we could have a reason to talk about it, because their historical claim is the same as ours.

If Jesus gave Peter the Keys… then Peter didn’t know how to use them.

 

[LilyM]

If Jesus gave Peter the Kingdom… then Peter didn’t know how to use them.

In other words Jesus’ promises and gifts are worthless and mean nothing.

 

[believers]

And you and those YOU consider to be religious experts/authorities know any better? Course you do

If Peter knew… he would never be blamed and Paul wouldn’t have had to correct him. And this was at least 13 years AFTER Jesus went to the cross.

 

[LilyM]

If Peter knew… he would never be blamed and Paul wouldn’t have had to correct him. And this was at least 13 years AFTER Jesus went to the cross.

Peter on a personal level was a sinner, as was Paul himself (he acknowledges himself to be ‘chief among sinners’). Doesn’t mean they didn’t retain the authority that Christ gave them.

It’s like Jesus Himself said about the Jewish authorities of His time - ‘they sit in the seat of Moses. That which they teach, do …’

He didn’t even deny the authority of the JEWISH leaders of His day, let alone that which He gave to His apostles.

 

[believers]

In other words Jesus’ promises and gifts are worthless and mean nothing.

Hi Lily, Please quote scripture and verse to make your point. I’m not into man’s reasoning. Thx

 

[believers]

Peter on a personal level was a sinner, as was Paul himself (he acknowledges himself to be ‘chief of all sinners’). Doesn’t mean they didn’t have authority.

For the record… Jesus gave ALL of his servants authority. (Mark 13:34). I happen to be one of His servants. THEREFORE, I have authority.

Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 

[LilyM]

For the record… Jesus gave ALL of his servants authority. (Mark 13:34). I happen to be one of His servants. THEREFORE, I have authority.

Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

He didn’t give ALL of us the SAME authority or works.

He didn’t give ALL of us the Keys to the Kingdom, He didn’t commission ALL of us to feed His lambs and sheep, He didn’t give ALL of us the power to bind and loose. These were promises made and gifts given just to Peter (the first two) and to the Apostles (the third) - certainly not to you and me.

 

[ralphinal]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Is more than enough, enough? To your question? No.

Oh, good. So JEsus says in no uncertain terms that he is God and that there is a Trinity and the connection there-in clearly and unambiguously in Scripture, right?

Please be specific as to what you want me to look at, there are 28 chapters in ACTS. Although I can answer the question because Scripture is real clear as to who the author is.

Quote:
Read about the Coucil of Jerusalem. That is enough to begin as to if the Church can change doctrine.

I thought Christ was the leader of the bunch.
He is. However, Jesus is not there physically answering question or telling the group what to do. Again, read Acts. Peter (Peter is not here physically either) pronounces judgment on those who cheat the Church, (I can pronounce judgment on anyone who rejects the gospel, just as you could)
Have you ever rebuked someone and they dropped dead on the spot?

Peter speaks for the 12Right? (I guess that’s why Paul had to rebuke him)

If you can tell me why Paul rebuked him. I will be amazed. I know the answer, but something tells me you do not.

and so on. Jesus is the head of the Church, but until he returns, someone has to hold the rope. Probably why there are 10’s of thousands of preachers and teachers of the gospel and each individual believer is called to give an answer to the hope that is in them…just a thought.
.

There are so many denominations because of Human sin, pride, and clouded knowledge. Are you saying that the best we can do is muddle though and hope God grades on a curve?

 

[believers]

He didn’t give ALL of us the SAME authority or works.

He didn’t give ALL of us the Keys to the Kingdom, He didn’t commission ALL of us to feed His lambs and sheep, He didn’t give ALL of us the power to bind and loose. These were promises made and gifts given just to Peter (the first two) and to the Apostles (the third) - certainly not to you and me.

Lily, You can ONLY reproof me with the Word of God. You’ll have to tell me where you get all this in scripture.

 

[believers]

Oh, good. So JEsus says in no uncertain terms that he is God and that there is a Trinity and the connection there-in clearly and unambiguously in Scripture, right?

Quote:
Read about the Coucil of Jerusalem. That is enough to begin as to if the Church can change doctrine.

I thought Christ was the leader of the bunch.
He is. However, Jesus is not there physically answering question or telling the group what to do. Again, read Acts. Peter (Peter is not here physically either) pronounces judgment on those who cheat the Church, (I can pronounce judgment on anyone who rejects the gospel, just as you could)
Have you ever rebuked someone and they dropped dead on the spot?

If you can tell me why Paul rebuked him. I will be amazed. I know the answer, but something tells me you do not.

There are so many denominations because of Human sin, pride, and clouded knowledge. Are you saying that the best we can do is muddle though and hope God grades on a curve?

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I (PAUL) withstood him to the face, because he (PETER) was to be blamed.

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked NOT uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

 

[LilyM]

Hi Lily, Please quote scripture and verse to make your point. I’m not into man’s reasoning. Thx

Are you really so ignorant that I need to quote
‘I say unto thee thou art Peter, and … I will give to you (singular, Peter) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven’

and quote chapter and verse (Matt 16:18-19) by the way)

before you will recognise that I am in fact quoting scripture when I say ‘Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom’?

And to point out that a reference to Peter and him alone, or the Apostles and them alone, DOESN’T include you? Where is it written in scripture that YOU are an apostle and that YOU can bind and loose and have the keys of the kingdom then?

 

[believers]

Are you really so ignorant that I need to quote
‘I say unto thee thou art Peter, and … I will give to you (singular, Peter) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven’

and quote chapter and verse (Matt 16:18-19) by the way)

before you will recognise that I am in fact quoting scripture when I say ‘Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom’?

And to point out that a reference to Peter and him alone, or the Apostles and them alone, DOESN’T include you? Where is it written in scripture that YOU are an apostle and that YOU can bind and loose and have the keys of the kingdom then?

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.