Where do I fit in?

[Athene_P]

I have recently returned to the church after a long time away and have found my local church to be a happy welcoming place unlike the place it was when I left, but I still am unsure how i fit in and at some point will need to approach my parish priest to ask about this, I kind of know the answers I will get but thought I would ask in any case.

I see that this is a question that has been asked before but not in a way that answers the questions I personally have as unfortunately many times the question is asked by someone who has an agenda other than looking for answers.

I have been very ill for a long time trying to reconcile how I feel inside with what I have been taught by the church and my experience of the world. My first memory is of my body being wrong and despite all sorts of intervention in the form of medication and therapy this is something that has never gone away.

I cannot reconcile being told that I have to accept my body being the way it is and not being able to make the, to me, minor revisions that would make it somewhere my soul is able to reside in grace. It seems that certain medical intervention including radical surgeries is acceptable to keep someone alive whilst others is not.

Surely if the teaching of the church is that the body is sacred then we should do nothing to alter it either chemically through taking medications or surgically through operations. A person should accept their body as it is and if this means dying because their organs are failing, after all this is how God made them and they should bear this cross without question.

I was taught that the soul is who we are and the body is the vessel it resides in for the time that we are on the earth but while other people are told that their alterations to their body are acceptable for me to do something that would allow my soul to exist in a state of grace is unacceptable to the same church.

Why is my cross so much heavier than other peoples, why was I given it as a child and told that it was simply something I had to accept but no-one was willing to help me share the load all i was told was how hard I made their lives by being the way I was. Even Jesus had some help on his way to Calvary.

 

[Myqyl]

Welcome home… No one here that hasn’t walked in your shoes can answer your question. Talk to your priest.

God bless and once again, Welcome Home

 

[jpjd]

I think I know what you are alluding to in your post, and I am unqualified to discuss it but I do recommend that you talk to a good priest to find solid answers to your searching.

I will say this, though. You fit in as a member of the body of Christ. You are a child of God and He gives you all the love and mercy of a loving Father. You may be struggling with your cross, but you are in good company as all the members of Christ body on earth are struggling with their cross (although yours may seem heavier). Pray to Jesus to help you with your cross, and talk to your priest. May God’s blessings be upon you.

 

[puzzleannie]

I have Surely if the teaching of the church is that the body is sacred then we should do nothing to alter it either chemically through taking medications or surgically through operations. A person should accept their body as it is and if this means dying because their organs are failing, after all this is how God made them and they should bear this cross without question.

I was taught that the soul is who we are and the body is the vessel it resides in for the time that we are on the earth but while other people are told that their alterations to their body are acceptable for me to do something that would allow my soul to exist in a state of grace is unacceptable to the same church.

.

this is not an accurate rendering of Church teaching. Who told you this? In what context? if the body is disordered that is not God’s will and we can take any moral means that does not impinge on our human dignity and right to life to correct the disorder, including surgery or other medical treatment. Make an appointment with the priest at the new church to discuss your concerns and get proper counsel for your personal situation.

The good or bad health of your body is not an indicator of the health of your soul, so where does that idea come from?

 

[Athene_P]

It is what you are probably thinking of but including the medical terms will attract people with a personal agenda on both sides of the ‘argument’ and more reasonable voices would be drowned out.

I’m hoping I can find the answers I am looking for but I more than expect to end up leaving again in the face of an immovable position based on words other than the teachings of Jesus, but my own personal faith will remain intact even if it is not in communion with the rest of the church.

 

[hazcompat]

It is what you are probably thinking of but including the medical terms will attract people with a personal agenda on both sides of the ‘argument’ and more reasonable voices would be drowned out.

I’m hoping I can find the answers I am looking for but I more than expect to end up leaving again in the face of an immovable position based on words other than the teachings of Jesus, but my own personal faith will remain intact even if it is not in communion with the rest of the church.

sincerely…I do not understand?

let nothing disturb your peace.

 

[Athene_P]

Sorry I was being naive to think things might be different…I guess it was nice to feel good about myself for a short time…I’m sorry for troubling you, I promise like others it was not my intent to do anything other than resolve questions.

Reading up on the issue this is one of those fundamental doctrines that is never going to change. I guess I kind of hoped if conservative islamists were willing to listen and reconsider their interpretation of teachings the church might also be amenable to listening to peoples experiences and consider changing its interpretation of the bible… but I guess the need to be part of something bigger than myself blinded me to reality.

 

[Myqyl]

Athene,

I’m fairly certain I know what your tslking about. Please don’t assume you are in some manner unwelcome in the Church. there will be some that might try to tell you that you are not welcome. They do not speak for the Church.

Welcome home… Kick off your shoes and stay awhile. The Church rejoices at your return.

God bless.

 

[tonyrey]

Surely if the teaching of the church is that the body is sacred then we should do nothing to alter it either chemically through taking medications or surgically through operations. A person should accept their body as it is and if this means dying because their organs are failing, after all this is how God made them and they should bear this cross without question.

God has made no one deformed, blind, disabled or disadvantaged. Most events are due to natural laws, human actions and an element of chance. We do not have to accept our body as it is in every respect.

I was taught that the soul is who we are and the body is the vessel it resides in for the time that we are on the earth but while other people are told that their alterations to their body are acceptable for me to do something that would allow my soul to exist in a state of grace is unacceptable to the same church.

Our spiritual progress does not depend on our physical makeup. Whether we are in a state of grace depends on** what we are capable of**, not an abstract ideal.

Why is my cross so much heavier than other peoples, why was I given it as a child and told that it was simply something I had to accept but no-one was willing to help me share the load all i was told was how hard I made their lives by being the way I was. Even Jesus had some help on his way to Calvary.

The greatest saints are the ones who have had to overcome the greatest problems. Even when we** think** we’ve failed we underestimate the value of our struggle to do what is right. God doesn’t expect us to work miracles on our own! The most important fact about life is that He loves us sufficiently to suffer and die for us. In that context all our difficulties pale into insignificance…

 

[Athene_P]

Sorry I am really struggling with this at the moment and last night got upset.

As a child I read the bible from cover to cover more than once looking for answers but only came across contradictions when it came to my personal situation. The explanation that parts of the bible were based on ancient Jewish laws that at that time were appropriate for good ‘health and safety’ and a reflection of their understanding of the world at that time is the only one that has worked. Hence why we were told by Jesus that he was giving us a new covenant (sorry if I don’t get that exactly right but its been a while) unfortunately it seems this is something that may be frequently misunderstood or forgotten.

I guess this is what I am hoping, I am seeing more and more in the church that people are coming to a better understanding of the world but staying grounded by the church and not having more radical reactions to things as they are exposed to new ideas.

I agree partially with Church doctrine on the issue of h’sexuality and t’sexuality (sorry again I am not using the full terms as I don’t want to attract people with a particular political agenda) being disordered and in many cases it is a reaction to psychological pressures. But I also think that church leaders have not been exposed to the right people and had the experiences that many of the laity have.

I come from a small town in a conservative christian country and the people who have accepted that I am female (or at least my soul is while my body has some ambiguities that so far even doctors have been confused by) are certainly not people who are radical in their outlook, they are openminded and have seen the pain that dealing with this has caused me. I can’t tell you the number of times that people look at me and are unsure if I am male or female but when they get to know me they realise that basing how they see me on my outward appearance is a mistake.

I have not had any surgical intervention yet because I have seen that for a huge number of people it does not solve their problems and they discover that they are actually men or women (their souls are and you can tell this from watching their behaviour) and have made a terrible mistake, but are unable to admit it.

I knew I needed to get to a position where my soul was much less troubled before I made a final decision on this, and I am very close to this stage but need some further medical investigations to see if what I think is actually the issue with me is in fact what is wrong and if it is what i think then I have to have certain surgeries as there is the possibility that otherwise I could develop certain cancers later in life.

For me the quotation that “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)” makes sense.

I accept this and have no disagreement that someone who acts contrary to this does this as well as anyone who undertakes active h’sexual sex cannot take communion until they have confessed their sins but that they should still be welcome to be part of the church.

But to me to pass myself off as male is acting in contravention of this as I have spent so much time in both quiet and active contemplation of my soul and the only time I am at peace is when I listen to what I have always known is right about myself and don’t try to deny this.

Knowing me and seeing what I have achieved for people through my actions which have (when not struggling psychologically or spirtitually) been guided by the teachings of the church from my childhood and from the example of the people who make up gods church.

I guess the issue is that the hierarchy of the church need to be exposed to what the laity and many diocesan clergy have, as this is the only way they can have a better understanding of the world and see that while h’sexuality and t’sexuality can be in many if not most cases disordered in some it is not as even when someone has dealt with their own inner turmoil it may still be there.

I hold out hope that there is a possibility that I or someone like me is able to have the opportunity to talk to those higher in the church, taking the example of the Ayatollah Khomeni who was a conservative cleric but who on meeting Maryam Hatoon Molkara issued a fatwa that allowed her to have surgery. Unfortunately I think this has been grossly misinterpreted and misapplied by the Iranian authorites, the fatwa was not authorisation for anyone to have corrective surgery but only Ms Molkara, who had shown Ayatollah Khomeni that this was right for her. I would urge people to consider this story when thinking about the issue of t’sexuality.

For me the teaching in deuteronomy is about not hiding your true nature from god and other people, and if read that way it makes sense to me. The clothing that is referred to cannot be actual practical clothing as styles change over time, but it has to me to be about how you present yourself to the world and ultimately to god. He has made you who you are for a reason, to give you a spiritual journey that will help you and other people understand that the world is more complicated than they thought.

I guess the next step is to approach my parish priest as my first point of contact with the clergy and talk openly and honestly about this while also seeing the appropriate medical experts rather than the ones who have not been able to understand me.

 

[Athene_P]

I hope people can see where I am coming from with this, and that I am not like the many other people who have come into these forums full of anger and unable to listen, whilst decrying others for not being open-minded. I know that the people who make up the church are open minded. But everyone, even the pope, is still human and capable of sin. People need to be exposed to the world outside the church to be able to have a true understanding of gods creation. To think that you understand gods creation wholly and to refuse to listen to others with an open mind was something that I was taught was contrary to the teachings of god.

I know I do not have all the answers but maybe I was put on the earth to help the members of the church to better understand gods creation, I don’t know and I am not arrogant enough to believe absolutely this is my purpose. But since I was a child it has been commented on that I have the capability to achieve great things, which I have in my professional life and personal life as I have been on this spiritual journey, I just hope to find a clergy willing to listen to my experience and to learn from it as the laity I have had contact with in my life have.

may the peace of god be with you.

(sorry this last bit took me over 6000 characters)

 

[Myqyl]

Once again, all I can say is welcome home… I understand that you think you might not be welcome, but you are. Will you encounter some folks that will be uncomfortable and unable to accept you? I’m guessing you will… Please pray for those folks as you meet them. They need your understanding and prayers.

We all have our cross. And we all have the instructions of our Lord Christ Jesus. “Pick up your cross and follow Me.”

God bless and welcome home.