Where do I go from here?

[POJIUJH]

We need GOOD reasons for total abstinence, too.

That’s true.

 

[ynotzap]

My dh and I have a one year old and a three year old.I was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. I had a bilateral mastectomy and all glory be to God, the cancer was not invasive and I did not have to have any further treatments after the surgery. I just have to have reconstructive surgery. During the time of being diagnosed and then during the recovery, I realized how overwhelming life can be at times with two little children and my husband gets tired a lot. He is a heavy smoker (smokes outside) and he is addicted to energy drinks. He crashes hard especially after work, and then I feel like it is hard to get a break with the little ones because he is very tired and wants to take a nap. It seems like at times his smoking habit takes him outside at some of the most inopportune times when both children are fussing or when I really need an extra hand. DH works very hard for our family and he loves us and he wants to quit smoking and quit the energy drinks, but he just can’t seem to beat these addictions. I was given the okay that if we wanted to have more children, that research does not indicate that there is any reason why we couldn’t or shouldn’t since my tumor was removed. I am scared to bring anymore children into our family at this point. I love our children so much and they have blessed us so much. I would love to have more if I felt stronger and if my husband did not have the addictions he has. I am afraid at this point that we cannot handle anymore. I refuse to take birth control and I am very much open to NFP. However, my dh is not Catholic. He attends Mass with me and is fine with me raising our children Catholic, but he will not participate in NFP classes or read about it etc… He doesn’t even want to talk about it. He has said that we can do it, but I have to just tell him when we can have sex and that is all he wants to know about it. I am overwhelmed right now and afraid to have sex because I have not taken an NFP class. I just have one book and I have heard that the classes are very important. My OB doctor told me that my cycles are going to be all messed up for awhile since I had surgery recently and he doesn’t think NFP would work. He is Catholic too, however, he is okay with birth control. He was even trying to encourage me to take it and even said he has spoken with theologians who claim it is okay in these types of circumstances. I told him I didn’t agree and I would talk to a priest and pray about it. I haven’t made an appointment with a priest yet. Is this what I should do? I feel ver confused. Another part of all of this is that I am finishing the last step in a master’s program and I plan to graduate next December. I will be doing an internship part-time. I will be out of the house just 2 days per week and our family will be watching the kids. I feel like God has opened the doors for me to finish my education. I have felt a lot of peace about it. If I get pregnant in the next few months, I would have to put off school even longer and I am in the clinical phase as I am going to be a counselor and the continuity of my experience would be jeopardized. I don’t want to hurt my relationship with my husband by not having sex with him, but I am overwhelmed that I have to learn NFP all on my own and I am afraid to have anymore children at this point until his health gets better and he has more energy to help with them. They are very energetic and take all of my energy. I would love some insight, prayers, advice, anything- please!! Thank you so much and God bless!!

You are between a rock and a hard place. God has allowed this to happen to you. Our tests are given to bring us closer to our eternal destiny, God. Your faith and love are being challenged. Do you believe that by obeying God in all things no matter what, is proof of your love for Him, and that in doing so, somehow things will not work out?. Do you really believe that He can do anything to overcome your dilemma ? Do you have the courage to step out in your faith. Who is your God, Jesus or your husband? Experience what God, in Jesus Christ can do for you and your husband. Pray and implore, Jesus said “Pray without ceasing” Open your bible and seek inspiration, it is the Inspired word of God. Let Him prove it to you. You will never fail in doing His Will.

Your husband is living dangerously, high energy drinks, probably loaded with caffeine, smoking, which clogs heart arteries, my son came close to having a heart attack from this habit. And if your husband should die, what of you and your children? Not a pretty picture, and he wants to have sex, to make him more tired He needs to really realize that his situation is not good and if he don’t he will have to learn the hard way. I have found when someone tells me something for my own good (love ) and I don’t listen and follow through, I’m the one that gets burned. Always stick to what God desires for you, you will never go wrong, experience His love for you and your family. May you be moved to commit yourself completely to Him is my prayer for you and your family…

 

[Regina7]

OP,
In addition to ABC being immoral, there have been numerous links to hormonal contraception and breast cancer. For that reason alone, your non-Catholic husband should want you to avoid them. If you choose nfp, I can tell you that you really don’t need your husband’s involvement- it’s not like he’ll be helping you finger test mucous. So if he’s supportive, learn it yourself. Good luck!

 

[LongingSoul]

Well, that’s not exactly right. The one practising NFP doesn’t have any fertility present in their particular circumstance to embrace. They would more embrace the lack of fertility present. But beside the impossibility of this, you said it right that a person who is contracepting by means of a surgical sterilisation or long term contraceptive shot would be of the same intention, so this could not be distinct.

But another point just came to mind, so far the replies in this thread that in favour of NFP have argued that it is legitimate universally. By that I mean, that in any circumstance NFP would be legitemate, but although there is non-infallible support for this in the Church, this is one thing that is actually taught against. Pope Pius XII made clear that this practise had to be used only if a sufficiently serious reason existed.

There are at least a couple of problems that come from that. If a sufficiently serious reason had to exist in order to make something moral, then either:

1.) The thing itself would be immoral by it’s very nature - and if something is immoral by nature, then it cannot be used even in a serious situation, because the ends don’t justify the means. Cold blodded murder is immoral by nature, and regardless of situation it is still immoral and has to be avoided.

1. There is no other possible option - but another possible option exists, abstinence (total), and therefore this cannot apply to NFP.

It would surely follow that 1.) is correct.

But as well as this, if this practise that is currently accepted (non infallibly) by the Church is legitemate, then any argument in favour of it would have to do with sufficient reasons, as any attempted argument for the universal legitimacy of NFP would be going against the directives that the Church has given (non infallibly), and this would currently rule out everything that has been said in favour of NFP so far.

But, even if sufficient reasons were talked about, it would still be a fact that sufficient reasons can’t be argued with something that is immoral by nature, so it would seem that support for this practise is impossible in every which way.

If one were practicing periodic abstinence to defer pregnancy without legitimate reasons… their sin would be selfishness… not contraception. However, the Church teaches that the decisions of a couple regarding their family size is to be strictly left to them and not imposed by any Church qualification… and especially not imposed by other Catholics who think they have the right to judge others in these matters.

Contraception specifically defines the practice of interfering with the sexual act to render it infertile. It is considered an intrinsic evil since it does not depend of intention or circumstances … but on the very act of deliberate interference with the natural act.

 

[Xantippe]

If one were practicing periodic abstinence to defer pregnancy without legitimate reasons… their sin would be selfishness… not contraception. However, the Church teaches that the decisions of a couple regarding their family size is to be strictly left to them and not imposed by any Church qualification… and especially not imposed by other Catholics who think they have the right to judge others in these matters.

Contraception specifically defines the practice of interfering with the sexual act to render it infertile. It is considered an intrinsic evil since it does not depend of intention or circumstances … but on the very act of deliberate interference with the natural act.

Yes.

 

[POJIUJH]

If one were practicing periodic abstinence to defer pregnancy without legitimate reasons… their sin would be selfishness… not contraception. (Contraception is a sin because of it’s nature and the intentions of the one practising it - selfishness would only be one element, but any one of the 7 deadly sins can apply to it (most often lust, gluttony & pride - which would mean selfishness. As “contraception” isn’t on the list of 7 deadly sins, you understand) However, the Church teaches (non infallibly) that the decisions of a couple regarding their family size is to be strictly left to them and not imposed by any Church qualification… and especially not imposed by other Catholics who think they have the right to judge others in these matters. Infact, this isn’t quite true. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, this teaching is on the level of Merely Authentic Ordinary Magisterium. They are not infalible but should be taken seriously provided they do not advocate sin or harm the faith. I am trying to ascertain this, as I currently think it does advocate sin and could possibly be harming the faith. I am trying to make sure of this, so far I can’t think of a reason - and nobody else has given me any reason - why it would be justified according to right logic. There’s nothing wrong with this, in fact the Church considers this fruitful.

Contraception specifically defines the practice of interfering with the sexual act to render it infertile. It is considered an intrinsic evil since it does not depend of intention or circumstances … but on the very act of deliberate interference with the natural act. (This is a little off. It is intrinsic, but the intention to commit the intrinsic evil is what makes a person sin. I know what you meant to say, that it is a sin in and of itself. This is true. But the act of deliberate interference isn’t only) what can make a person sin in that way. But this is also besides the point, as I am arguing to say that NFP is deliberate interference, just in a different manner than most other kinds of contraception.

No harm, nut you will need to read everything I have said so far to understand what I am saying in my last post.

There are a few errors here, I have taken to pointing them out.

 

[LongingSoul]

(This is a little off. It is intrinsic, but the intention to commit the intrinsic evil is what makes a person sin. I know what you meant to say, that it is a sin in and of itself. This is true. But the act of deliberate interference isn’t only) what can make a person sin in that way. But this is also besides the point, as I am arguing to say that NFP is deliberate interference, just in a different manner than most other kinds of contraception.

Abstaining from sexual intercourse doesn’t constitute a ‘deliberate interference’ by any standards. Deliberate interference presupposes that an act is underway. If one decides not to bake a cake, we don’t call that a deliberate interference. If one is in the process of making a cake but withholds one or more ingredients from the mix… that would be an interference.

Pope StJPII explains the differences in Familiaris Consortio…

“In the light of the experience of many couples and of the data provided by the different human sciences, theological reflection is able to perceive and is called to study further the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle: it is a difference which is much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. The choice of the natural rhythms involves accepting the cycle of the person, that is the woman, and thereby accepting dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self- control. To accept the cycle and to enter into dialogue means to recognize both the spiritual and corporal character of conjugal communion and to live personal love with its requirement of fidelity. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension, and is never “used” as an “object” that, by breaking the personal unity of soul and body, strikes at God’s creation itself at the level of the deepest interaction of nature and person.”

In other words, periodically abstaining from sex in order to avoid pregnancy is to preserve the integrity of the sexual act. It is the antithesis of contraception.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No harm, nut you will need to read everything I have said so far to understand what I am saying in my last post.

There are a few errors here, I have taken to pointing them out.

While the sin of selfishness is prevalent I also agree with you that NFP can involve other sins. For instance permanent abstinence with the intent to never have children in a marriage from the start is not only selfish but contraception as well. While I believe NFP can be abused, you will not get far on this site with that opinion.

I suppose bank robbery is the sin of selfishness too, and every sin. The problem is that saying “the sin of selfishness” makes things seem not so bad. It is a false comfort.

at any rate, while I agree with you more than you know, the battle will be lost by you. And that my friend is why I cannot join you. But good luck with all that…

 

[POJIUJH]

Abstaining from sexual intercourse doesn’t constitute a ‘deliberate interference’ by any standards. Deliberate interference presupposes that an act is underway. If one decides not to bake a cake, we don’t call that a deliberate interference. If one is in the process of making a cake but withholds one or more ingredients from the mix… that would be an interference.

Pope StJPII explains the differences in Familiaris Consortio…

“In the light of the experience of many couples and of the data provided by the different human sciences, theological reflection is able to perceive and is called to study further the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle: it is a difference which is much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. The choice of the natural rhythms involves accepting the cycle of the person, that is the woman, and thereby accepting dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self- control. To accept the cycle and to enter into dialogue means to recognize both the spiritual and corporal character of conjugal communion and to live personal love with its requirement of fidelity. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension, and is never “used” as an “object” that, by breaking the personal unity of soul and body, strikes at God’s creation itself at the level of the deepest interaction of nature and person.”

In other words, periodically abstaining from sex in order to avoid pregnancy is to preserve the integrity of the sexual act. It is the antithesis of contraception.

I think you have picked me up wrong, I’m not arguing against abstinence at all. Part of NFP teaches that with serious reasons it is licit for a person to intentionally perform the marital act only at times of infertility. It’s this that I have doubts about, and I am trying to come to some form of conclusion on this.

 

[POJIUJH]

While the sin of selfishness is prevalent I also agree with you that NFP can involve other sins. For instance permanent abstinence with the intent to never have children in a marriage from the start is not only selfish but contraception as well. (And an invalid marriage! - but, on the side, what is it you mean by contraception as you mention it here? When you said abstinence, I thought at first you meant abstinence, but are you meaning the NFP method of partial abstinence?) While I believe NFP can be abused, you will not get far on this site with that opinion.

I suppose bank robbery is the sin of selfishness too, and every sin. The problem is that saying “the sin of selfishness” makes things seem not so bad. It is a false comfort.

at any rate, while I agree with you more than you know, the battle will be lost by you. And that my friend is why I cannot join you. But good luck with all that…

I’m being honest in saying that I’m not coming to this discussion with an idea to defend. With brains like Pope Paul, Pope St JPII and Pope Benedict there are bound to be good reasons why they thought this way, but so far from what I know and what we have talked about here -if this is all there is, which it might not be- it appears according to logic that there is reason to think that they could have gotten this wrong.

If somebody would be able to give an answer that would rule out the problem points that I have said here, then I would jump on-board right away. I mean that. I’m not trying to keep a ship from sinking, I just want to ascertain whether or not NFP is really moral or not. I want to stay as far from opinions as possible and just talk about solid reasons, but why is it that you think the points I have mentioned so far are doomed to lose?

 

[LongingSoul]

I think you have picked me up wrong, I’m not arguing against abstinence at all. Part of NFP teaches that with serious reasons it is licit for a person to intentionally perform the marital act only at times of infertility. It’s this that I have doubts about, and I am trying to come to some form of conclusion on this.

Lets take a working example… If a young couple marries and has decided by the age of 30 that they don’t feel able to responsibly support any more children than they have… that means that there is about 25 years of fertility left in their conjugal union.

What seems the most moral option to you?

a. they abstain from sex for the rest of their marriage
or b. they continue to have sex on impulse dealing with the number of children that results in until menopause is reached. (Consider that nature has made it that sexual attraction is most strong during a woman’s ovulation)

 

[LongingSoul]

While the sin of selfishness is prevalent I also agree with you that NFP can involve other sins. For instance **permanent abstinence with the intent to never have children in a marriage from the start is not only selfish but contraception **as well.

Absolutely not. Contraception specifically defines the act of thwarting the sexual act in progress. Contraception is a different mindset altogether than abstaining. One abuses the sexual act in progress… the other avoids the sexual act altogether to save its integrity.

As Pope StJPII says in FC… "To accept the cycle and to enter into dialogue means to recognize both the spiritual and corporal character of conjugal communion and to live personal love with its requirement of fidelity. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension, and is never “used” as an “object” that, by breaking the personal unity of soul and body, strikes at God’s creation itself at the level of the deepest interaction of nature and person."

He is saying that to live our conjugal love around the cycle of fertility actually enriches our understanding of the union and preserves our sexual faculty as* sacred*.

 

[Be_Courageous]

Hi everyone,

I have read the responses and appreciate the different angles that everyone has offered. I am currently reading a couple of NFP books. One is called “Honoring Our Cycles” and the other is on the The Billings Method. I am going to do my best to just watch my fertility. Neither my husband or I would be devastated if I were to get pregnant again. However, my school program has been streched to the limit. I can only use 6 years to finish my master’s in this program or else I would have to start from the very beginning again and I am at the very end now. I took time off to be home with my little ones and I am so glad I did. Now, we are in over our heads though with student loans and other debt. I really have to finish this program so that I can also help with the income unless my husband is able to find a way to bring in more income and he is already so exhausted from his current job.

To be clear: 1) My husband does not want me to take artificial birth control. He has never encouraged that. It was my OB who was suggesting it since I had recently battled cancer. 2) My dh has a very strong addiction to cigarettes and he has tried to quit several times. He wants to quit but the habit and the addiction have such a strong hold on him. I thought that my diagnosis of cancer would be something to maybe scare him into quitting. However, as much as he wants to, the addiction is just so strong. I don’t know anything more than praying for him to help. 3) My main reasons for my original post was that I was just feeling scared and needed some advice from other Catholics. I didn’t want to paint my dh in a negative light. Though we have had our challenges, he loves me and our boys very much and he works very hard and takes care of our family very well. His tiredness from the smoking and cough just scares me. I know that I could not take care of the two little ones we have now on my own if my dh were to get sick. I have limited family support available. My dad is not in great physical health as he is aging and cannot be with the kids alone and my mom had a heart attack this past August and she is no longer with us. My husband’s parents are available on a limited basis. I just want to finish school so I will have a stable source of income to help get us out of debt and to take some of the stress away from my dh. Plus, I want to continue to be intimate with him as it is good and healthy for our marriage and helps him to relieve stress. At the same time, I want to be smart about what we can handle financially and health and energy-wise as well. So, as I stated, I will read these books and watch my cycles and do my best. If I can at least avoid pregnancy until I can graduate next December, then that is the best option as I see it. If God has a different plan, well, of course I submit to His will and I know His will is best. I would appreciate prayers for our family for our financial and health struggles. THank you all and God bless you.