Where do Protestants belong?

[Bob_Crowley]

Did you go through RCIA? Mystagogy phase covers and includes one’s journey after he or she has received the sacraments. All of the “why” should have been covered and answered during the Inquiry and Pre-Catechumenate phases. I really do not understand your position. What more should the church to do? RCIA was and is the oldest catechetical method/model of receiving new folks.

I went through RCIA, but the teaching in that short period was hardly exhaustive. And by and large it’s led by lay Catholics, who may or may not be particularly well informed about their own faith. You learn a bit, but not a great deal. It’s purely an introduction.

I’m not quibbling about RCIA. What I’ve found is that once one becomes a Catholic, any further learning is up to you. This is a somewhat different situation to someone who’s been in the Catholic system from the start - attending mass with parents, going through a Catholic school, taught formal Catholic teaching for years on end and so on.

But to someone who comes in from another denomination, there’s a lot they don’t know. For example even basic terms like Lent, Advent and Sundays in Ordinary Time were foreign to me. Yet every cradle Catholic would know precisely what they mean. A missal was an unknown quantity, and when I purchased one, I had trouble working out how to use it. What’s a catechism? What’s a creed? What’s a sacrament and how many should there be?

On the other hand, “elders” seemed to disappear from the church dictionary. One hardly heard a word about missions. I was a Presbyterian, but didn’t know what a presbytery was, yet I knew what a manse was. I’d never heard of a tabernacle, other than in a vague way, and a columbarium was something in a Roman Temple. Altars went out with the Jewish Temple, and the I knew what communion was, but not the Eucharist. If someone said “Too soon the elements disappear”, I knew the bread and grape-juice was finished, but if the **host **wanted me to stay he’d have to bring some more.

Anglicans might not find it too difficult, but most other Protestant Churches have very little formal structure.

Like I said, once I was in, that was the end of formal instruction, and I just had to pick it up as I went.

 

[asd72]

As a protestant who is standing at the point of finding which way to go…someone please answer the question???
It’s a bit overwhelming. I thought that when we decided to move towards Catholicism the absence of “denominations” was going to be such a relief. Now I’m finding that there’s still more to it.
It’s ok though. He will lead us…That I know.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both have Apostolic succession, but have been separated for about 1000 years. If you read about the East-West schism you will understand.

 

[mick321]

I am reminded of a conversation with a fellow parishioner, who was telling me about a conversation he’d had with the priest. In essence, he had told the priest, “It could get awkward for you, because presumably you’d have to stick to the Church’s teaching.” And Father had replied, **“Oh no, I wouldn’t feel I had to stick to the Church’s teaching: I would argue the Church’s position because I agree with it.” **

I have never seen a parishioner so spooked by a priest.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be
World without end
Amen

 

[ImperfectMama]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both have Apostolic succession, but have been separated for about 1000 years. If you read about the East-West schism you will understand.

I do know that much, but that is about the point we are at. We haven’t delved into why and how that affects us right now. We have close friends who are both EO and RC and are trying to feel out where to “land” I guess? I’m finding this discussion really helpful.
(although, I have to admit that I’m disappointed in how much drama there is in some of these forums. I guess I expected more respect and unity here? Or at least loving diplomacy?)

 

[asd72]

I do know that much, but that is about the point we are at. We haven’t delved into why and how that affects us right now. We have close friends who are both EO and RC and are trying to feel out where to “land” I guess? I’m finding this discussion really helpful.
(although, I have to admit that I’m disappointed in how much drama there is in some of these forums. I guess I expected more respect and unity here? Or at least loving diplomacy?)

It is a subject that can get quite complicated for some people. I just felt I wanted to be with the successor of Peter although ultimately I want us all to be united of course. I guess spend some time exploring it yourself, and post any questions here.

 

[AlwaysCurious]

I went through RCIA, but the teaching in that short period was hardly exhaustive. And by and large it’s led by lay Catholics, who may or may not be particularly well informed about their own faith. You learn a bit, but not a great deal. It’s purely an introduction.

I’m not quibbling about RCIA. What I’ve found is that once one becomes a Catholic, any further learning is up to you. This is a somewhat different situation to someone who’s been in the Catholic system from the start - attending mass with parents, going through a Catholic school, taught formal Catholic teaching for years on end and so on.

But to someone who comes in from another denomination, there’s a lot they don’t know. For example even basic terms like Lent, Advent and Sundays in Ordinary Time were foreign to me. Yet every cradle Catholic would know precisely what they mean. A missal was an unknown quantity, and when I purchased one, I had trouble working out how to use it. What’s a catechism? What’s a creed? What’s a sacrament and how many should there be?

On the other hand, “elders” seemed to disappear from the church dictionary. One hardly heard a word about missions. I was a Presbyterian, but didn’t know what a presbytery was, yet I knew what a manse was. I’d never heard of a tabernacle, other than in a vague way, and a columbarium was something in a Roman Temple. Altars went out with the Jewish Temple, and the I knew what communion was, but not the Eucharist. If someone said “Too soon the elements disappear”, I knew the bread and grape-juice was finished, but if the **host **wanted me to stay he’d have to bring some more.

Anglicans might not find it too difficult, but most other Protestant Churches have very little formal structure.

Like I said, once I was in, that was the end of formal instruction, and I just had to pick it up as I went.

This must differ quite a bit from parish to parish. My RCIA covered several of the things yours didn’t (it lasted 8 months and was led by a layman with an MDiv who is very knowledgeable and orthodox). In addition, our parish is constantly having classes that are focused on explaining various aspects of the Church, theology, etc. We had a several-week study on the new Mass translation and another about interacting with other faiths, for instance. We also have regular trainings for liturgical ministers (EMHCs, lectors, etc.) that go into greater detail about the Mass. The priest of a neighboring parish sometimes does “teaching Masses” where he explains each action as he is performing it. Beyond this, it doesn’t bother me to have to do my own homework if I want to know more–I can’t expect my diocese/parish to offer everything.

One of the most exciting things about being Catholic, to me, is that there’s always more to learn. Coming from Evangelicalism about 3 years ago, I never had classes or instruction about these kinds of things. “Theology” was almost a dirty word, and “liturgy” was unheard of. Everything we did as evangelicals was devotional. Frankly, there wasn’t much to learn except the latest techniques on how to squeeze more warm-and-fuzzies out of your personal relationship with Jesus.

I am thankful to be in the Church where even the lightest read or smallest liturgical action is steeped in a saintly tradition that greatly outshines the typical material I had as an evangelical (e.g. the latest Max Lucado or Beth Moore book).

 

[mick321]

Thanks for the responses.

For potential converts, particularly those from Protestant communities, the initial catechesis must not merely paint a favorable picture of Apostolic Christianity and the Sacraments. It needs to bridge the theological gap in no-uncertain-terms. It seems to me that this should be accomplished before accepting the potential convert into the Church and its ministries.

Also, I would like to specifically invite Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox [catechists, converts, others] to contribute to this discussion as well. I am interested in how your Churches help converts across the even wider gap that currently separates Eastern Christianity from Western. Is there a commitment to ongoing adult catechesis?

Thanks.again to all.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Are you a convert to the RCC? Were these issues discussed in your parish’s religious education program? How long ago?

No, I am not a convert. I was baptized a Catholic as an infant, and raised in the Catholic Church.

But, forgive me if this sounds ungrateful or judgmental, I’d say that the religious education for children at my parish when I was a child was of a very low quality and communicated almost nothing, just generalities such as Jesus loves us, which is important and true, but isn’t nearly enough.

As I see it, the quality of parish-based religious education for children, and the Catechumate courses (RCIA) for prospective new Catholics, varies greatly from parish to parish, and diocese to diocese.

I did sit on a few RCIA classes once. I was dismayed. It was really being run like a psychological encounter group. I assume they’ll learn the Catholic Faith on their own in some other context, perhaps by watching some of the good programming on EWTN TV, or by reading some good Catholic books, or the encyclicals of Benedict XVI or John Paul II.

I forgot to mention that the most important thing that I’ve read is the Bible. I prefer the Jerusalem Bible (not the New Jerusalem Bible). I think, for the most part, people should stay a MILLION miles away from reading Bible Commentaries, or the footnotes in any Bible edition.

Just READ THE WORD. See what it is saying. Yet, I don’t recommend focusing on the literal level.

As everyone knows, the four senses of Scripture, as the Church teaches this doctrine, are: (1) the literal level of the text’s meaning, within which can be found three spiritual levels:
(2) the typological sense
(often called the allegorical),
(3) the moral sense (sometimes named the tropological sense), and
(4) the anagogical sense.

I focus on #2, 3 and 4.

Getting bogged down the literal level just gets one all stressed out by apparent contradictions and historical accuracy issues. So I just skip the literal level, for the most part. I don’t deny anything on the literal level. I just don’t cultivate that part of Bible studies.

Many of the anteNicene Church Fathers (e.g., Clement, Origen) believed that there were hidden, important and helpful meanings in the Bible that could be discovered by reading the Bible creatively and by noticing how words are used and seeing connections between different parts of the Bible. I endorse this approach of the Church Fathers, and use it.

I’ve learned a lot from Jehovah’s Witnesses. They really read and study the Bible a LOT. I’ve even learned from the ways they misread the Bible. I’ve even learned from their often terrible translation (the New World Translation). The many respectful conversations I’ve had with J.W. friends has been a great help to me. It has only left then frustrated, since their sole aim is to get me to join their group. But their recurring visits to my home have spurred me on to study the Bible. I don’t insult them by pointing out there errors. That seems too rude. I let them teach me what they want. I ask questions when I really want to learn something from them. But, I have from time to time, responded to their request of me that I explain why I won’t join them. Even though they have many misinterpretations of the Scriptures, they have many very interesting feasible and acceptable interpretations too.
For the most part, I find them to be earnest, pleasant persons. They at least take their SERVICE TO GOD very seriously. That is awesome.

Above all, I believe one must limit one’s focus on logic and reason. The faith mainly is about EMOTIONS, about how one FEELS about God and Neighbor. The Pentecostals and Charismatics are RIGHT about that. Don’t believe me. Read the Four Gospels, which the Church hold to be our main GUIDES. They are NOTHING like Apologetics, they are nothing like Greco-Roman Philosophy. There’s very little LOGIC in them. Read the parables. Many make no logical sense at all. Jesus even said he told parables to HIDE the mysteries of the kingdom from the masses who were not interested in repentance and the things of God. Jesus came to move hearts. Jesus LOVED and LOVES his Father. LOVE, as in love as n emotion. Peter LOVED and LOVES Jesus. LOVE! Emotion! Mary Magdelene LOVED Jesus. Peter and Mary Magdelene were not apologists, going around “proving” the faith to ignorant people. The higher intellectual mind has little to do with it. Consider this Bible reading from yesterday’s Sunday mass:

"But this is the covenant that I will make
with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD.
I will place my law within them and write it upon their hearts…"

All the use of the term “heart” in the New Testament is not for nothing.

Today, alas, there’s a whole movement that aims to “argue” non-Catholics into the Catholic Church. To me, this is often just form of bullying. It tells others:

“You poor non-Catholic. You are not as smart as I am. Or, alternatively, you, unlike me, are committed to clinging to your seriously sinful ways. How can I conclude these things? Because I’ve just proven to you that the Catholic Church is the true church and still you reject it. Logically, this must be because you are stupid, or, evil. It must be one of the other, right? Well, have a nice day!”

Read the New Testament. It is fully mystery, mysteries, miracles, and wonders. That’s how the true Christian life is.

It is NOT about anything that can be captured and controlled by historical evidence and logical proofs. All that is often just political power seeking and ordinary egoistic oneupmanshoip under a religious guise, in my opinion.

A person who does not deeply FEEL God, at least some of the time, doesn’t KNOW God, and instead is just a follower of an ideology.

 

[DarkLight]

I wonder what kind of background converts from Protestantism come from? I’ve seen a couple of converts in my group - almost all students of theology or philosophy from evangelical backgrounds. Most of us were self-educated in large part (I haven’t even been through RCIA, though I am considering it). Now we’re hardly going to be the majority, but I am curious what the breakdown is. I do think a lot of Catholics make the mistake of assuming protestants or inquirers/elect from protestantism are ignorant on theology, when it’s not uncommon for us to have a better grasp than many cradle Catholics. Not to boast, but because we’ve had to make a serious decision and defend it to often hostile family and friends.

I will repeat what one of my friends said about his process however - "The most useful thing in a catechist is the ability to say ‘I don’t know, here’s who you should ask.’ "

 

[jlhargus]

I do know that much, but that is about the point we are at. We haven’t delved into why and how that affects us right now. We have close friends who are both EO and RC and are trying to feel out where to “land” I guess? I’m finding this discussion really helpful.
(although, I have to admit that I’m disappointed in how much drama there is in some of these forums. I guess I expected more respect and unity here? Or at least loving diplomacy?)

JL: The best advise you could give them would be look for the keys. Christ gave the keys to ONE apostle, Mt16:13-19. The others are given the authority to bind and loose but only in union with the ONE who holds the keys, Mt18:18. Only ONE was given the authority to FEED the lambs and sheep (ALL) Jn21. Only ONE was prayed for by Christ that his FAITH FALL NOT. Only ONE was told to STRENGTHEN the brethren (ALL) Lk22:28-32.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

The original question of this honorable thread was “Where do Protestants belong?”

My answer: in Heaven.

 

[Cavaradossi]

JL: The best advise you could give them would be look for the keys. Christ gave the keys to ONE apostle, Mt16:13-19. The others are given the authority to bind and loose but only in union with the ONE who holds the keys, Mt18:18. Only ONE was given the authority to FEED the lambs and sheep (ALL) Jn21. Only ONE was prayed for by Christ that his FAITH FALL NOT. Only ONE was told to STRENGTHEN the brethren (ALL) Lk22:28-32.

 

[hope_7]

Its strange to me that you would ask.

I tried to go into the catholic church ,but because I could not say that I believe that all the catholic church teaches and does is of God ;they just wrote me off.

It wasent that I was trying to argue with them I just couldnt cross God’s word.
Its strange that many of those who are catholic do not believe that all that the catholic church teaches and does is of God themselves. All one has to do is to read thease forums to see.

I have found that there is very little to help protestants come into the catholic church. There is very little outreach at all. Even on this forum I have tried to share and to find out answers from differant ones on this catholic forum only to be brushed off because I am not catholic.

I have even asked for God to send someone to help me. roman catholic or orthodox but that has not happened.

 

[CxThePilot]

Its strange to me that you would ask.

I tried to go into the catholic church ,but because I could not say that I believe that all the catholic church teaches and does is of God ;they just wrote me off.

It wasent that I was trying to argue with them I just couldnt cross God’s word.
Its strange that many of those who are catholic do not believe that all that the catholic church teaches and does is of God themselves. All one has to do is to read thease forums to see.

I have found that there is very little to help protestants come into the catholic church. There is very little outreach at all. Even on this forum I have tried to share and to find out answers from differant ones on this catholic forum only to be brushed off because I am not catholic.

I have even asked for God to send someone to help me. roman catholic or orthodox but that has not happened.

It is God who converts protestant not us.

 

[CMP2]

One must learn the teachings of the Church about those who have chosen to be in schism from the one true Church. This link may help. We must go to antiquital teachings in these days of conflicting modern theology.
search.freefind.com/find.html?id=86188487&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&charset=&bcd=%C3%B7&query=Salvation+through+the+Catholic+Church++One+Salvation

 

[jlhargus]

Its strange to me that you would ask.

I tried to go into the catholic church ,but because I could not say that I believe that all the catholic church teaches and does is of God ;they just wrote me off.

It wasent that I was trying to argue with them I just couldnt cross God’s word.
Its strange that many of those who are catholic do not believe that all that the catholic church teaches and does is of God themselves. All one has to do is to read thease forums to see.

I have found that there is very little to help protestants come into the catholic church. There is very little outreach at all. Even on this forum I have tried to share and to find out answers from differant ones on this catholic forum only to be brushed off because I am not catholic.

I have even asked for God to send someone to help me. roman catholic or orthodox but that has not happened.

JL: Hope if you wish to send private messages to me with questions you may have about the Catholic faith I would be pleased to help.

 

[CMP2]

One must learn the teachings of the Church about those who have chosen to be in schism from the one true Church. This link may help. We must go to antiquital teachings in these days of conflicting modern theology.
search.freefind.com/find.html?id=86188487&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&charset=&bcd=%C3%B7&query=Salvation+through+the+Catholic+Church++One+Salvation

We must always be open to dialogue with non Catholics. Not in the way of false ecumenical inclusivism but in the way of loving concern for their salvation. To ignore this real call of a Catholic to convert is to ignore the sacrifice that Jesus Christ underwent to release man of eternal damnation. He gave us the Way, the Truth and the LIfe under ONE SHEPHERD, ONE FLOCK. Not 30 - 60,000 random congregations and schisms. We must proclaim the truth of The One Church under Peter. There is no other.

It is not in a sense of superiority that we claim this it is given to us in Scripture. Jesus will leave the saved to save the unsaved, and so must we. Step outside the safety net and catch some fish, we are modern day apostles, small ‘a’, and we must go out and save by example and teaching who we can.

Ezekiel says it better than I ever could my being a sinner. If we speak the truth and they do not listen, due to their stiff necks and/or rebellion, as did the majority of Jews hearing the Truth in Christs time, we shake off the dust an move on. If they hear and reject then that is to their judgment but not ours. But **if we see error and do not speak out **then that judgment imposed on them will be ours also…

---

NOW EZEKIEL speaks:

“…whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to the wicked, `You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that …wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; **and you will have saved your life.” **(EZEKIEL 3: 17-21)

 

[reformedman1]

In recent decades, both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches have had the opportunity to catechize and ultimately accept converts from Protestant Christian communities.

In fact some recent converts have become very outspoken proponents of their new Churches. Catholic apologist-authors Jimmy Aiken and Scott Hahn come immediately to mind as do Peter Gillquist and Clark Carlton on the Orthodox side.

For the purpose of this discussion, lets assume that a Christian of Protestant formation is interested in converting to authentic, sacramental Christianity of Apostolic origin.

What are the pros & cons of both the RC and EO churches in the areas of indoctrinating new catechumens, assimilating them into the respective Churches, and retaining them over the long term? Is either Church better equipped (doctrinally or otherwise) to successfully accomplish this sort of conversion?

Interested in thoughts, opinions and personal experiences of converts, catechists, clergy, lay faithful, both RC & EO.

IN HELL hahaahahahha!! sorry had to do it.

 

[CMP2]

It is God who converts protestant not us.

Hope your name says it all. Do not lose hope in your quest for truth. I am a convert, I came into the Church in 1966, just before the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was reformed. I walked through the Church and was faithful for 42 years and then a small flicker of HOPE came back. The Traditional Latin Mass. I suggest you find a Priest in the Traditional Latin Rite such as the Fraternity of St. Peter and go there to have your questions answered.
I belong to their Parish and I have never been more at peace. This is a Rite under Rome, under the Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict the XVI.

You will have to believe, in faith if not ‘feeling’ the teachings of the Church. Remember one can make a decision based on intellect and not feelings. This is not of the Church. We are a ‘feeling’ people of course, thus the beauty of incense, the sound of Gregorian Chant, the feel of Holy Water on our hands and foreheads when we enter the Church to worship, but that is physical and very comforting, but not essential to ‘believing’ in the dogmas of faith.

Don’t worry you will gradually fall in love as you surrender to His call to come Home to truth. I have done so after so many years. Ten years ago I finally surrendered fully and now am madly in love. It is like no other love. Well worth the battle to find truth.

God be with you my sister in Christ, c.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16SummorumPontificum.htm
zenit.org/article-32564?l=english
fssp.org/en/messes.htm

Christus Regnant

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

The notion that the bishops and popes of Catholic Church of the current era (since Vatican II Council) have as their aim the conversion of Protestant Christians to the Catholic Church is…

A SERIOUS DOCTRINAL ERROR.

How so many people in this forum could be promoting this doctrinal error with no one in authority correcting it is incomprehensible to me.

Just read the Vatican II Council’s documents, especially these:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_ad-gentes_en.html

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html

Also read this clarifying document by Cardinal Ratzinger, using a correct theological understanding of the crucial terms “subjective” and “objectively”:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Also see this from a recent Synod of Bishops (Catholic) and approved by the pope:
vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20110202_lineamenta-xiii-assembly_en.html (all about the “New Evangelization”)

Jimmy Akins wrote a book called “Mass Confusion” about confusion about the liturgy. But he really needs to write one about what the “New Evangelization” means and doesn’t mean.

Protestants don’t have any general need to “convert.” They are already members of the same Church as are Catholics. Blessed John Paul II CONSTANTLY repeated both to these truths. Pope Benedict XVI does the same.

Anyone who says that in general Protestants must “convert” in order to be saved or in order to have a better chance of attaining eternal life are DISSENTERS who are operating on their own private agenda that is flatly disapproved of by the Catholic pope and bishops. There are right wing Catholic dissenting groups, and one can join them if one wants. It is a free country. But just know that you are a dissenter.