Where do the Deuterocanonical Books testifles about Jesus?

[Big_Dummy]

John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

 

[Barbkw]

Daniel

I’ve heard it said that the Magi from the East may have been from a Babylonian school established by Daniel. Daniel had great influence on the release of the captive Jews, yet he himself never returned to Jerusalem.

I’ve also heard that the Wisemen, may have been Zorasterian priests (astronomers in their day who followed the stars and the Zodiac). Zoroastrianism and Judaism are two of the three earliest monotheistic religions.

Judith

She became a Jewish princess because she saved her country by removing the head of the conquering general: To me, she is the prefigurement of Mary and Satan. Right when he thinks he has this beautiful yet weak female (and her countrymen) cornered, she proves him very wrong.

Ester

Also the story of a Jewish queen who comes to the aid of her people to save them from death.

** Maccabees I and II**

Two historical accounts of the beginning of the Hasmonian rule. Hanukkah is established in Maccabees. The physical golden Arc of the Covenant is hidden and lost forever in Maccabees.

In Maccabees, the Jewish Hasmonean Dynasty rises and falls into the hands of the Romans & the Herodian Dynasty. From here, we’ll see the intersect of the Magi with King Herod (who has already killed his two sons with the princess Mariamne the Hasmonian). By this time Herod has also killed Princess Mariamne, her mother and the Hasmonian High Priest).

jewishhistory.org/review-of-the-hasmonean-era/

Tobit

A angel from God walks with a man, directing his course, comes to his aid and saves him from certain death. The organs of a dead fish are used to break Satan’s spell. The organs of a dead fish are also used to cure his father from his blindness. (The first Christians identified themselves by the symbol of a fish - the Ichthux - a Greek abbreviation that spells out Jesus Christ God Son Savior.)

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[18]
Wisdom
Sirach, also called Ben Sira or Ecclesiasticus
Baruch

Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

 

[Joe_Kelley]

12 “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child* of the Lord. 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.” 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls; 23 for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, * 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

Wisdom 2:12-24 One can see why the Jews removed it. But the Protestants lost a lot in omitting that passage.

 

[agent_grey]

ask the same question about the the books of the kings and we have a discussion.

 

[Esdra]

Wisdom 2:12-24 One can see why the Jews removed it. But the Protestants lost a lot in omitting that passage.

First of all thanks to the OP for starting this thread. Because this issue interests myself, as I have been discussing about the deuteros lately here in CAF.

Secondly, big thanks to you Joe! This verse is great! I mean, I already have read parts of the Deuteros, but never came across this particular one.

I guess I’ll start reading more in the deuteros. There are also other nice parts in it, especially in the Wisdom literature (Sirach and Wisdom).
Fortunately I have also bibles with “the apocrypha” (as Evangelical call them).

Esdra

 

[Big_Dummy]

Wisdom 2:12-24 One can see why the Jews removed it. But the Protestants lost a lot in omitting that passage.

I don’t see why the Jews would remove Wisdom 2 because verse 21 onward plainly says,

21
These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,
22
And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.
23
For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him.
24
But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm

Their evil thoughts would hardly be inspired prophecy as you are trying to make it out.

 

[Big_Dummy]

ask the same question about the the books of the kings and we have a discussion.

Please stay on topic,
bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm
jesusplusnothing.com/jesus66books.htm

The role of Kings is discussed in

The Lord’s anointed: interpretation of Old Testament messianic texts
Editors P. E. Satterthwaite, Richard S. Hess, Gordon J. Wenham

google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&pwst=1&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&&sa=X&ei=mfEHTe_5K4r6sgaN3sSMDg&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQvwUoAQ&q=intertextuality+%22Books+of+Kings%22+messianic+witness&spell=1&fp=e10c0771c77b99b0

 

[Big_Dummy]

First of all thanks to the OP for starting this thread. Because this issue interests myself, as I have been discussing about the deuteros lately here in CAF.

Secondly, big thanks to you Joe! This verse is great! I mean, I already have read parts of the Deuteros, but never came across this particular one.

I guess I’ll start reading more in the deuteros. There are also other nice parts in it, especially in the Wisdom literature (Sirach and Wisdom).
Fortunately I have also bibles with “the apocrypha” (as Evangelical call them).

Esdra

It was those threads that got me curious about this topic. As for the Zorasterian priests thing there is no historical proof of that, nor linguistic for that matter. That myth comes from Jason BeDuhn for the purpose of claiming that the magi did not worship Jesus when they found him. Since the same greek word for magi is used in the LXX of Daniel and Matthew, the Babylonian thing is at least possible, but we are not given any evidence in historical evidence for that claim.

 

[Barbkw]

I’ve become rather interested in the Magi and wondering about their astrological abilities and about how they “read” the star formations.

Was reading & looking through a couple of books last night about cities in the Bible and about the history of astronomy.

At the time of Christ’s birth - advances in astronomy were centered at Ur / Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), Babylon (present day Iraq), nation state of Greece, Assyria (includes Iraq), Egypt and China.

Interesting web page on the history of Babylonian astrology / astronomy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astrology

"Constellations

The third limitation was that there is little evidence that the signs of the zodiac that we now recognise, were used in Babylonian astronomy prior to 700 BC. However, probably from as early as the days of Hammurabi c. 2000 BC, Babylonian astrologers did develop the idea of constellations by depicting prominent groups of stars with outlines of images derived from their mythology and religion. The earliest irrefutable evidence for the use of constellations can be found in a variety of lexical star-lists dating to the Old Babylonian Period[7]."

This website has gathered together the stars and constellations mentioned in the Bible.

horizonenergycorp.com/hpo/constellations/bible.htm

The Bible names some constellations:

“Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens?” (Job 38:31-32) See also Amos 5:8;

 

[Contarini]

Please stay on topic,

It is on topic. You are working from the premise that any authentic OT canonical books testify about Jesus.

If you are willing to allow allegorical interpretations, then your objection melts away, because all the deuterocanonical books (and indeed all books) can be interpreted allegorically as testifying to Jesus.

If you want something a bit clearer, the passage from Wisdom mentioned above is the best place to start. Sure, it refers generally to the righteous person, but the same is true of a lot of OT “messianic” passages (Isaiah 53 can be interpreted as referring to the nation of Israel, for instance). Also, the various personified references to “Wisdom” in the deuterocanonical wisdom books can be interpreted Christologically, just as the similar passages in Proverbs can.

For undisputed OT books that don’t seem to refer to Jesus, I wouldn’t go to Kings, but to Esther, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Judges. Without doing some serious allegorizing, I don’t think you can find Jesus in those books.

The deuterocanonicals are best seen as equivalent to other “Writings”: Judith and Tobit to Esther (and of course there are bits of Esther that are deuterocanonical), the wisdom books to the undisputed wisdom books, and Maccabees to Ezra-Nehemiah (post-exilic history). When you line them up like that, what you find is that they are no more and no less Christological than their “Hebrew canon” counterparts. The Wisdom books are Christological in the same way Proverbs is (and more so than Ecclesiastes or Job).

 

[campeador]

Wisdom 2:12-24 One can see why the Jews removed it. But the Protestants lost a lot in omitting that passage.

And Wisdom 2:11.

**Wisdom 2 **(wiki link):
The first indication for Christians that it is a prophecy of the Messiah is in verse 11. Where the RSV reads weak, the Greek has achrestos (αχρηστος), a play on the title Christos (Χρήστος).

 

[swariffin]

Daniel

I’ve heard it said that the Magi from the East may have been from a Babylonian school established by Daniel. Daniel had great influence on the release of the captive Jews, yet he himself never returned to Jerusalem.

I’ve also heard that the Wisemen, may have been Zorasterian priests (astronomers in their day who followed the stars and the Zodiac). Zoroastrianism and Judaism are two of the three earliest monotheistic religions.

Judith

She became a Jewish princess because she saved her country by removing the head of the conquering general: To me, she is the prefigurement of Mary and Satan. Right when he thinks he has this beautiful yet weak female (and her countrymen) cornered, she proves him very wrong.

Ester

Also the story of a Jewish queen who comes to the aid of her people to save them from death.

** Maccabees I and II**

Two historical accounts of the beginning of the Hasmonian rule. Hanukkah is established in Maccabees. The physical golden Arc of the Covenant is hidden and lost forever in Maccabees.

In Maccabees, the Jewish Hasmonean Dynasty rises and falls into the hands of the Romans & the Herodian Dynasty. From here, we’ll see the intersect of the Magi with King Herod (who has already killed his two sons with the princess Mariamne the Hasmonian). By this time Herod has also killed Princess Mariamne, her mother and the Hasmonian High Priest).

jewishhistory.org/review-of-the-hasmonean-era/

Tobit

A angel from God walks with a man, directing his course, comes to his aid and saves him from certain death. The organs of a dead fish are used to break Satan’s spell. The organs of a dead fish are also used to cure his father from his blindness. (The first Christians identified themselves by the symbol of a fish - the Ichthux - a Greek abbreviation that spells out Jesus Christ God Son Savior.)

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[18]
Wisdom
Sirach, also called Ben Sira or Ecclesiasticus
Baruch

Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Also the book of Sirakh, chapter 24:3-6. Compared it to John 1:1.

 

[Big_Dummy]

“Greek has achrestos (αχρηστος), a play on the title Christos (Χρήστος).”

Sorrry, “weak” “messiah”, no play on words there.

and

sorry, “achrestos (αχρηστος)”, “Christos (Χρήστος)” lol, there really is no play on words there either.

Whoever, posted that at wicked-pedia is just begging the question.

thanks for the laugh.

 

[campeador]

thanks for the laugh.

Attack the weakest link. Typical.

 

[Big_Dummy]

lol

 

[campeador]

lol

I feel the same way.

Everyone knows wikipedia is unreliable, but better to attack it than to answer swariffin, Contarini, Barbkw, Joe Kelley, Esdra, etc. right?

Yeah, lol.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Fact is I did answer them first by pointing out verses 21-22, but if one were just to read the text in context they would know it is the thinking of the wicked, not prophecy as you are trying to pretend. Any of us with Jewish background would just laugh at any suggestion that it is prophecy because all Jewish people would know that the book of Ben Sira does not defile the hands, whereas Scripture does defile the hands.

verse 21-22 has everything to do with it. The words you quoting are the thoughts of the wicked, they are not insipred in anyway. The text itself is not a prophecy of any kind.

Read in context.

Wisdom 2 (Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha)

1 Wicked people are wrong when they say to themselves, “Our life is short and full of sorrow, and when its end comes, there is no escape. No one has ever been known to come back from the world of the dead. 2 We were born by chance, and after life is over, we will be as if we had never been born at all. Our breath is no more than a puff of smoke; our mind is nothing more than a spark thrown off by the beating of our heart. 3 When that spark dies, our body will crumble into ashes, and our breath will become part of the empty air. 4 In time, no one will remember anything we ever did, and even our names will be forgotten. Our lives will pass away like the traces of clouds and vanish like fog in the heat of the sun. 5 Our time on earth is like a passing shadow. There is no escape from the day of our death; it is fixed, and no one can postpone it.” 6 The wicked say, "Come on, then, let’s enjoy the good things of life, and live in this world the way we did when we were young and free of care! 7 Let’s drink the most expensive wines and use the finest perfumes. Let’s not miss a single flower in the springtime! 8 Before the roses wither, let’s pick them and wear them in our hair! 9 Let’s all join in and leave signs everywhere of our carefree revelry! Life owes us that much! 10 “We’ll oppress the poor, even if they are righteous. We’ll show no respect for widows or old people. 11 We’ll call ourselves right if we are strong enough to get what we want. No one ever got anywhere by being weak! 12 Righteous people are nothing but a nuisance, so let’s look for chances to get rid of them. They are against what we do; they accuse us of breaking the Law of Moses and violating the traditions of our ancestors. 13 They claim to know God, and they call themselves the Lord’s children. 14 We can’t stand the sight of people like that; what they are contradicts our whole way of thinking. 15 They are not like other people; they have strange ways. 16 They think that our moral standards are so corrupt that everything we do should be avoided. They boast of having God for their Father, and believe that when all is said and done, only the righteous will be happy. 17 But we’ll see if that’s true! Let’s see what will happen when it’s time for them to die! 18 If the righteous really are God’s children, God will save them from their enemies. 19 So let’s put them to the test. We’ll be cruel to them, and torment them; then we’ll find out how calm and reasonable they are! We’ll find out just how much they can stand! 20 We’ll condemn them to a shameful death. After all, they say that God will protect them.” 21 That is how evil people think, but they are wrong. They are blinded by their own wickedness. 22 They have never known God’s secrets, never hoped for the rewards of a holy and blameless life. 23 When God created us, he did not intend for us to die; he made us like himself. 24 It was the Devil’s jealousy that brought death into the world, and those who belong to the Devil are the ones who will die.

biblestudytools.com/gnta/wisdom/2.html

Jewish people will know that the book of Ben Sira does not defile the hands and that scripture does defile the hands. But, reading the text in context refutes any notion of it being a prophecy.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Wisdom 2:12-24 One can see why the Jews removed it. But the Protestants lost a lot in omitting that passage.

As a Methodist, we pattern much of our worship service and ideas around the book of Wisdom. The District Superintendent even came and preached a sermon based on the book of Wisdom.

As a young man, Tobit was very comforting to me during times of great fear.

The loss of the apocrypha is a great loss. Sorry, deuterocannon.

 

[hizstory]

I might get accused of being off topic, but I’m going to throw my two cents in anyways. I wasn’t even aware that the deuterocanonical books existed until I converted to Catholicism. None of the churches I previously belonged to ever mentioned them. That being said, I think it is a bit odd that any protestant would question the inspiration of these books (not that the OP stated this as his reason for the post). Protestants accept that the Holy Spirit guided the Church in selecting what belonged in the New Testament, so what sense does it make to question the canon of the Old Testament? Same Church, same Holy Spirit.

 

[Esdra]

I might get accused of being off topic, but I’m going to throw my two cents in anyways. I wasn’t even aware that the deuterocanonical books existed until I converted to Catholicism. None of the churches I previously belonged to ever mentioned them. That being said, I think it is a bit odd that any protestant would question the inspiration of these books (not that the OP stated this as his reason for the post). Protestants accept that the Holy Spirit guided the Church in selecting what belonged in the New Testament, so what sense does it make to question the canon of the Old Testament? Same Church, same Holy Spirit.

Hi

yes, I know that people who weren’t born Catholic and then convert to Catholicism don’t know that the Deuertos do exist.
I am a born Catholic (and have converted) - and I was asthonished that Books of the OT “were missing” in the first (non Catholic) Bible I’ve bought (that was a New American Standard Bible!)
Then I became really curious and researched about that topic. Now I am sort of an expert concerning the Apocrypha of the OT/and the Deuterocanonical Books.

I have been talking in another thread about that.

Esdra