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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
I understand what you were saying. I’m just befuddled by the notion that infants merit eternal punishment by default.
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sixofseven
Guest
I don’t think the Bible is silent at all…
Here’s just a couple:
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Colossians 2:12-14
having been buried with him **in baptism **and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
And Romans 5 tells us that the result of one trespass (Adam - Original Sin) was condemnation for all men.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again (BAPTISED), not of perishable seed (MAN/BODY), but of imperishable (CHRIST/SPIRIT), through the living and enduring word of God.
Because of Adam’s sin, we are, by nature, children of wrath and it is only through Baptism that we are saved in Christ.
I do believe in the Mercy of God and cannot say what happens to those babies - I only know that Baptism is NECESSARY to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself said so (John 3:3).
Here’s just a couple:
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Colossians 2:12-14
having been buried with him **in baptism **and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
And Romans 5 tells us that the result of one trespass (Adam - Original Sin) was condemnation for all men.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again (BAPTISED), not of perishable seed (MAN/BODY), but of imperishable (CHRIST/SPIRIT), through the living and enduring word of God.
Because of Adam’s sin, we are, by nature, children of wrath and it is only through Baptism that we are saved in Christ.
I do believe in the Mercy of God and cannot say what happens to those babies - I only know that Baptism is NECESSARY to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself said so (John 3:3).
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TheQuestioner
Guest
hahaha oh dear algebra. If you knew the true nature of baptism you would know that it does not truly require water. You are right though, you cannot enter heaven without being cleansed, but for these infants it is God who must choose to cleanse (middle knowledge would come in handy right about here).
Also, you are wrong to say “in the eyes of God you have already sinned” Rather, you are already unclean, not just in God’s eyes, but in all of natures’. You are truly unclean, not just seen as unclean.
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TheQuestioner
Guest
But really though, for you protestants out there, if you must “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” then you actually have less hope in thinking that infants will go to heaven, since they cannot do this.
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Lapey
Guest
Your statement here bothers me. It seems you put more importance on the act of being baptized than the act of self sacrifice in which Jesus performed on the cross. Paul’s writing is quite clear that our actions cannot save us. Is it Jesus who saves or baptism?
Now I do understand the importance and necessity of baptism, but this does not hold true with an innocent child. Look at the healing of the blind man, Jesus told the man it was not the sins of him or his family. He was blind and healed for the good of all. I do not believe God can be put in a box and only “allowed” to do certain things certain ways, neither does the Church believe this to be true.
Un-baptized babies such as abortion victims are in Heaven with our Lord.
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SSTeacher
Guest
I agree. Jesus saves and speculations about who is saved and who isn’t saved seem to serve no useful purpose. Any Christian who finds difficulty in trusting in the mercy of God probably needs to spend a few months in legalism rehab.
Definitely,
Mick
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algebra
Guest
All I am saying is that while the law is not on your side, the Judge definitely is.
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SSTeacher
Guest
Lapey;6495377:
no ifs, no buts.
That my friend, is the law.
However, as I stated in my original post, we must have faith in Gods infinite mercy and judgement.Your statement here bothers me. It seems you put more importance on the act of being baptized than the act of self sacrifice in which Jesus performed on the cross. Paul’s writing is quite clear that our actions cannot save us. Is it Jesus who saves or baptism?
Now I do understand the importance and necessity of baptism, but this does not hold true with an innocent child. Look at the healing of the blind man, Jesus told the man it was not the sins of him or his family. He was blind and healed for the good of all. I do not believe God can be put in a box and only “allowed” to do certain things certain ways, neither does the Church believe this to be true.
Un-baptized babies such as abortion victims are in Heaven with our Lord.I agree. Jesus saves and speculations about who is saved and who isn’t saved seem to serve no useful purpose. Any Christian who finds difficulty in trusting in the mercy of God probably needs to spend a few months in legalism rehab.
Definitely,
Mick
But which “law” are you referencing?SSTeacher;6495778:
All I am saying is that while the law is not on your side, the Judge definitely is.the mercy of God probably needs to spend a few months in legalism rehab.
Definitely,
Mick
Curiously,
Mick
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algebra
Guest
The law that says you die for your sins.But which “law” are you referencing?
Curiously,
Mick
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Dokimas
Guest
Not true. I believe the sin nature passed down to all of us that were not born of a virgin.
Of course sin (OS) separates us from God, that’s why we must choose to let Jesus be our Savior and Lord.
I believe when Jesus called little ones to Himself and told us NOT to forgid them to do so, He was making a statement that He loves and cares for infants and young children so much, His Blood and Broken Body would be enough until they understood sin and their need for the Savior.
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Dokimas
Guest
We do the ‘dedication’ thing too, similar to what Mary and Joseph did with Jesus.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Well the irony is, most protestants use the same doctrine as the Catholic church.
Here is what the Catholics say
1261: As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Most protestants would also point to several scriptures in the Book of John.
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Dokimas
Guest
Interesting observation.Wasn’t Hitler baptized as an infant?
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Excellent.
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Dokimas
Guest
Good points; thank you.
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peary
Guest
I still like the idea of LIMBO.
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Xavierlives
Guest
I think the Catholic Church has moved away from this idea but allowed Catholics to believe it if they like.I still like the idea of LIMBO.
(Which is yet another interesting facets of the CC).
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Loboto-Me
Guest
I’m sure God sees a soul as a soul, not as an infant or an elder. A soul is a soul is a soul.
Now God being omnipresent and omnipotent would know if that soul would have accepted Christ and wanted baptism to begin with. I suspect that if a child would have been a sinful person or a loving christian during his life had he lived God would know this too.
Given that baptism gives graces, that “sinful” person may have gotten the boost needed to nudge him toward Jesus. But we are humans, we don’t know what God knows, are we willing to wait and take a chance on a child who would have been sinful but due to the graces of baptism, been turned around had he lived?
We don’t know which infant we could have helped"save" through baptism and which we could not. Do you think we as parents of these children will have to answer to our lack of giving this gift of baptism to those who God entrusted in our care?
Now God being omnipresent and omnipotent would know if that soul would have accepted Christ and wanted baptism to begin with. I suspect that if a child would have been a sinful person or a loving christian during his life had he lived God would know this too.
Given that baptism gives graces, that “sinful” person may have gotten the boost needed to nudge him toward Jesus. But we are humans, we don’t know what God knows, are we willing to wait and take a chance on a child who would have been sinful but due to the graces of baptism, been turned around had he lived?
We don’t know which infant we could have helped"save" through baptism and which we could not. Do you think we as parents of these children will have to answer to our lack of giving this gift of baptism to those who God entrusted in our care?
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