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nodito
Guest
DakiniArtist,
This is a beautiful example of how we should approach every topic! Well said!
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This is a beautiful example of how we should approach every topic! Well said!
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Loly_Maria
Guest
Not necessarily, if fornication is sex outside of marriage. I’m married, but we just don’t want children.But would that not take away my right to fornicate?
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Loly_Maria
Guest
Not necessarily. I’m married, but we just don’t want children.But would that not take away my right to fornicate?
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Hans_W
Guest
This was good advice 3000 years ago and perhaps until 200 years ago, with high infant mortality and a life span of about 40 years. For most of human history 30 to 40% of children died before their first birthday.
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DCNBILL
Guest
I am sorry, I was joking but the reality that you propose challenges my heart.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Indeed. A few years back there were some nuns who worked in an area with a high risk of sexual assault. They were (I believe) actually taking birth control pills. The Church’s teaching on ABC is not so clear in such a situation: could the nuns be morally culpable if they were victims of assault?
If I recall correctly, the Vatican told the nuns to stop - but not because using ABC would be inherently sinful in their situation, but because birth control pills (as a particular form of ABC) can be abortifacients (as your own OB/GYN pointed out).
But there is no such ambiguity when someone simply wants the instant gratification of sex without the consequences, which is what usually happens with artificial birth control. There might be some wiggle-room in Catholic theology regarding barrier (non-abortifacient) ABCs in rather extraordinary circumstances. Like many Catholic teachings, the Church may someday distinguish between “ordinary” and “extraordinary” (ie, not ordinary) teaching regarding ABCs. But I have a feeling that very few people will fall into the extraordinary category.
Yeah, I’ve heard that interpretation. It was an oddball situation - Onan was compelled (by a rather unusual aspect of Jewish law) to marry his brother’s widow - a Leverite marriage.
Suppose Onan had agreed to marry and support his brother’s widow, as the law required, but did not lie with her (so as to not give children to his brother). Would God have struck him dead for that?
But Onan did not simply refuse to lie with the widow - he partook in the pleasures of being a husband without accepting any of the responsibility. Had he denied himself the illicit gratification, and ONLY refused to lie with her (which would have been arguably MORE effective at denying his brother children, because withdrawal isn’t very effective), would God have struck him dead? I really don’t think anyone would want to make that case.
Have you considered Natural Family Planning (NFP)? It is widely used, even outside of Catholicism. According to Wikipedia,
That statistic is equivalent to one unexpected pregnancy per 500 women per year. Nothing short of complete abstinence (or sterilization) is that effective.
That’s 50% more effective than “perfect use” of birth control pills. And without any of the possible side effects of pills (have you ever read a package insert for BCPs??? It’s absolutely terrifying). NFP is 45 TIMES more effective than “typical use” of BCPs (which fail 9% of the time).
According to the World Health Institutes, NFP is twenty TIMES more effective than “perfect use” of condoms, and NINETY TIMES more effective than “typical use” of condoms (which fail 18% of the time - which is almost the same conception rate as if nothing is used). One study put a drop of green dye into the tips of condoms - and green dye got everywhere! Those things are about as effective as sugar pills.
Seriously! Let’s do the basic math. In these studies, men are wearing condoms 100% of the time. But a woman is typically only fertile four days (or so) each month. That’s about 20%. If you use NOTHING, a woman will become pregnant, on average, once in every five sexual encounters (though many will miscarry, often without her knowledge). With condoms, it’s about one in six encounters. Condoms are typically just barely better than nothing at all.
NFP is not only the safest way to regulate family size, but it’s also the most reliable.
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godisgood77
Guest
I think the real rub people have with the natural law argument is that the marital embrace is also, by God’s design, unitive and for the good of the couple; in addition to being procreative. The act is by natural law pleasurable and we are designed for that pleasure - so indulging in it an enjoying it is, by natural law, according to God’s plan.
Now some will say that indulging in that pleasure is lustful, but lust is only applicable when the desire for the pleasure is excessive and disordered.
I think the story of Onan reference is a good one…although the situation is a little problemetic. Namely, he was having sex with someone other than his wife. The law of the land at the time, made that his obligation (silly as that may sound). So that situation is against the “natural law” - an argument commonly used to justify marriage between one man and one woman. It seems Onan was contracepting to avoid the obligation of siring a child with someone other than his wife… an act of disobedience to the law…
Now some will say that indulging in that pleasure is lustful, but lust is only applicable when the desire for the pleasure is excessive and disordered.
I think the story of Onan reference is a good one…although the situation is a little problemetic. Namely, he was having sex with someone other than his wife. The law of the land at the time, made that his obligation (silly as that may sound). So that situation is against the “natural law” - an argument commonly used to justify marriage between one man and one woman. It seems Onan was contracepting to avoid the obligation of siring a child with someone other than his wife… an act of disobedience to the law…
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kozlosap
Guest
I was thinking the exact same thing! In order to have a rational argument about contraception then it has to be a “given” that the world has changed more in the last 150 years than it did in the prior 10,000 years. If those engaged in the discussion refuse to acknowledge the significant changes then here will be no need to try and debate. In addition, throwing out chapter and verse from the CCC is ridiculous. We can all read.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
And one of those changes is the widespread availability of artificial birth control - something utterly unknown to our ancestors.
But the morality (right/wrong) of ABC has nothing to do with life expectancy or infant mortality.
We can debate whether morality is tied to statistics. According to Wikipedia, the earth had about 1.7 trillion people on it just a century ago (no data on 10,000 years ago, but it was surely less than a billion, which is 1/1000 of a trillion). The earth has about 7 trillion people today - an increase of about 411% in the past century alone.
So, just in the past century, population growth has FAR surpassed the growth in life expectancy or the decline in infant mortality.
Some people say that’s a problem - and in some areas the population is really dense and it really is a problem.
Does that mean it’s morally OK to drop bombs on people? Or mow them down with gunfire? The problem of “too many people” has any number of easy solutions.
If not, at what point in the earth’s population will it become morally OK to just kill people? The population will continue to rise. What is the number we need to reach in order to make murder morally acceptable? I hope it’s not 7.1 trillion - if so, it’s time for me to move to the wilderness and stockpile guns!
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nodito
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This is true, and this is why the Church also teaches that it is wrong to try to avoid the unitive aspect of the marital act. IVF, for example, is wrong because it maintains the procreative aspect while eliminating the unitive aspect. Flip side of the contraceptive coin.
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phil19034
Guest
Besides the common cold (and maybe flu like diseases in modern society) what disease is better than an unwanted pregnancy?
You can always give an unwanted child to a loving couple. You cannot give an unwanted disease to someone else to suffer for you.
Outside of rape… You don’t have to ever worry about an unwanted pregnancy if you are not fornicating (or use NFP). Anyone can get sick.
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DavidFilmer
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True. One benefit of NFP is that it can be used to achieve pregnancy as well as to postpone it. NFP is often the first course of treatment for couples who have trouble conceiving.
But, although IVF is considered unacceptable, infertile Catholics are not without some medical recourse. Most theologians consider Lower Tubal Ovum Transfer (LTOT) as acceptable. Gamete Intra-Fallopian Transfer (GIFT) is more controversial, but according to the USCCB (American Bishops), GIFT remains an option:
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DakiniArtist
Guest
Thank you for the fantastic explanation of the trouble with Onan. Seeing the story in the light of him shirking the responsibility that comes with sex is very clear and helpful!
As for NFP, yes, I got started with Creighton Method in 2012 and love it. Every woman should be so in tune with her body. I’m approaching menopause, which makes it trickier to read my body, and others have suggested Billings. I also have the Kindara free app which is a boon!
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DakiniArtist
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Thank you so much, sweet friend! :hug1:
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SonOfMan
Guest
Isnt that legit according to St Paul? He says its better to marry as a means to control ones passions, rather than to burn with lust and potentially fall into sin.
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SonOfMan
Guest
So does eating cheesecake for that matter.
But these are not the kinds of discussions Im looking to have. The ides that contraception is wrong seems to come from theologians (who are fallible), not from God or even Jesus.
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SonOfMan
Guest
Onan didnt fulfill what was commanded of him and thats why he was slewn. As far as I know, we are not all called to impregnate Onan’s sister in law (nor would that be possible).
The fact remains, God never says contraception is wrong, nor did God ever make a commandment that states “Thou Shall Not Contracept.”
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SonOfMan
Guest
Adultery, lust, and divorce are worse than contraception and got frequent condemnations from Jesus. So far outside the Biblical mindset that God even created 2 Commandments regarding these issues.
None for contraception though.
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Loly_Maria
Guest
There are lots of diseases that I would choose over being pregnant. It’s not about being able to give the child away, I don’t want to be pregnant in the first place. I don’t have to worry about unwanted pregnancy thanks to contraception.
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SonOfMan
Guest
Contraception doesnt prevent one from fulfilling this. Many married couples with quite a few kids are also contraceptors.
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