Where do you draw the line between sanctity and folly?

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eelpis

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St Joseph Benedict Labre, St Francis, St Mary Magdalen de’Pazzi, St Simon the stylite, Bl Damian, St John Mary Vianney?

Isn’t God’s wisdom more powerful than that of the world?
 
One thing about St. Simeon the Stylite. When a committe of bishops ordered him to come down, he immediately started to descend. The bishops then stopped him, saying, “Since you are willing to be obedient to the church, brother, we know that God has called you to this life. Stay there.”

The fool-for-Christ is a not-infrequent figure among Orthodox and especially Russian saints.
 
bpbasilphx said:
One thing about St. Simeon the Stylite. When a committe of bishops ordered him to come down, he immediately started to descend. The bishops then stopped him, saying, “Since you are willing to be obedient to the church, brother, we know that God has called you to this life. Stay there.”

The fool-for-Christ is a not-infrequent figure among Orthodox and especially Russian saints.
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Obedience to the Church is obedience to Christ.

That being said, the Saints had no fear of admonishing bishops and even the pope. St Catherine of Siena and St Bridget for example. One Saint was even burnt as a heretic by Church authorities, St Joan of Arc.
 
eelpis said:
Obedience to the Church is obedience to Christ.

That being said, the Saints had no fear of admonishing bishops and even the pope. St Catherine of Siena and St Bridget for example. One Saint was even burnt as a heretic by Church authorities, St Joan of Arc.
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No. Error. Untrue. Joan of Arc was martyred by certain bishops even as the Pope was proclaiming the opposite in regard to her. Joan of Arc was NOT declared a heretic by the Church nor was she killed by the Church. Bishops could do evil then - as now.
 
catharina said:
No. Error. Untrue. Joan of Arc was martyred by certain bishops even as the Pope was proclaiming the opposite in regard to her. Joan of Arc was NOT declared a heretic by the Church nor was she killed by the Church. Bishops could do evil then - as now.
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I notice you lumped the below into your “wrong”, “no”, “error” statement.
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eelpis:
That being said, the Saints had no fear of admonishing bishops and even the pope. St Catherine of Siena and St Bridget for example.
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SFD
 
SFD said:
Was that your way of agreeing with this:

But never admonishing on Faith and Morals. Right?

SFD
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My remark was in regard to Joan of Arc. As always, I have no plans to discuss anything with you - as you know quite well. Suggestion — you speak for you, I speak for me.
 
catharina said:
My remark was in regard to Joan of Arc. As always, I have no plans to discuss anything with you - as you know quite well. Suggestion — you speak for you, I speak for me.
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Refusing to speak to others is a vice…is it not? Why can’t you just answer the question?

SFD
 
SFD said:
Refusing to speak to others is a vice…is it not? Why can’t you just answer the question?

SFD
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Refusing to answer your questions is an act of virtue, namely wisdom. You’ve made it clear, repeatedly, that you seek only conflict with me. I can answer the question but I won’t answer the question. Please amuse yourself at the expense of someone else. There must be many posters who will rise to your bait. I’m not one of them. That you’ve decided to stalk me is perfectly obvious. It should embarrass you. Bye bye again, and God bless you.
 
Before the thread gets completely hijacked …

eelpis:

Your fascinating thread title drew me in to read your topic. Now you’ve got me curious.

I would be very interested to hear how in your estimation St Joseph Benedict Labre, St Francis, St Mary Magdalen de’Pazzi, and St John Mary Vianney walked the fine line between sanctity and folly?

bpbasilphx piqued my interest enough to look up more info on St. Simeon the Stylite, whom I had heard about but must have forgotten … For any in this conversation as confuzzled as me, 😛 what St. Simeon the Stylite “started to descend” was a pillar. He ended up living atop the pillar for 37 years, if Wikipedia can be believed. (Not the best reference but hey, it was the first website to come up in a Google search.) 🙂

As for Blessed Damien of Molokai, it’s easy (understatement of the century) to see how his heroic decision to voluntarily live and serve the sick in a leper colony, even though this eventually led to his death, could be viewed as folly by the world.

Pope John Paul II said about Blessed Damien:

“Holiness is not perfection according to human criteria; it is not reserved for a small number of exceptional persons. It is for everyone; it is the Lord who brings us to holiness, when we are willing to collaborate in the salvation of the world for the glory of God, despite our sin and our sometimes rebellious temperament.”

americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1379

There’s the old expression, “the folly of the Cross,” which brings to mind a relevant … and beautiful … Bible verse on sacrificial love:

“Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” – John 15:13

~~ the phoenix
 
the_phoenix said:
Before the thread gets completely hijacked …

eelpis:

Your fascinating thread title drew me in to read your topic. Now you’ve got me curious.

I would be very interested to hear how in your estimation St Joseph Benedict Labre, St Francis, St Mary Magdalen de’Pazzi, and St John Mary Vianney walked the fine line between sanctity and folly?

bpbasilphx piqued my interest enough to look up more info on St. Simeon the Stylite, whom I had heard about but must have forgotten … For any in this conversation as confuzzled as me, 😛 what St. Simeon the Stylite “started to descend” was a pillar. He ended up living atop the pillar for 37 years, if Wikipedia can be believed. (Not the best reference but hey, it was the first website to come up in a Google search.) 🙂

As for Blessed Damien of Molokai, it’s easy (understatement of the century) to see how his heroic decision to voluntarily live and serve the sick in a leper colony, even though this eventually led to his death, could be viewed as folly by the world.

Pope John Paul II said about Blessed Damien:

“Holiness is not perfection according to human criteria; it is not reserved for a small number of exceptional persons. It is for everyone; it is the Lord who brings us to holiness, when we are willing to collaborate in the salvation of the world for the glory of God, despite our sin and our sometimes rebellious temperament.”

americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1379

There’s the old expression, “the folly of the Cross,” which brings to mind a relevant … and beautiful … Bible verse on sacrificial love:

“Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” – John 15:13

~~ the phoenix
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That’s a beautiful quote from Pope John Paul II. Thanks. Also, re Father Damien of Molokai - he’s another great one. I’d forgotten about his example.
 
catharina said:
No. Error. Untrue. Joan of Arc was martyred by certain bishops even as the Pope was proclaiming the opposite in regard to her. Joan of Arc was NOT declared a heretic by the Church nor was she killed by the Church. Bishops could do evil then - as now.
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If fact the English bishops who tried St Joan of Arc condemned her a heretic. The Church authorities then handed her over to secular authority in Burgundy to carry out the burning.
The pope later declared the English bishops decision null and void.
 
There was a New York City firefighter who was repeatedly decorated for successfully carrying out dangerous rescues of people who were trapped in burning buildings. One day something went wrong during a rescue and he was killed.

Did he “push his luck” or did the Infinite God decide that the firefighter had already more than demonstrated that he was worthy of a prominent place in Heaven?

Where is the line between sanctity and folly?

By whose standards are we discussing where the line is?

[That’s why we are here … to prove to the Infinite God we are worthy of spending eternity with the Him.]
 
Surely the test is whether someone’s ‘sanctity’ is done out of love for God and for neighbour, as the case of St Simeon Stylites’ descending at the order of the Church demonstrates.

Another fairly crazy sounding penitent was St Rosa of Lima, who slept on a bed of broken glass, wire and nails, but, importantly, also used her waking time to help the poor of Lima. The purpose, love, is what makes the penance holy and not insane.

As St Paul tells us, if I give up my body to be burned, but have not love, then what use does my penance have?

One particular example of such burning of the body (literally) must be the Syriac mystic Barsauma, who took to wearing a tunic of iron (that’s bad enough in itself, but bear in mind how hot it gets in Syria, and that iron rusts, and you realise he must have had mottled, rusted, blood-encrusted iron tearing at third degree burns all over his body) and who never reclined, but was hung upright by his tunic when he needed to sleep. All his dramatic penances didn’t stop him falling into the Nestorian heresy, nor did it stop him commanding his followers to burn and loot synagogues.
 
Al_Masetti said:
[That’s why we are here … to prove to the Infinite God we are worthy of spending eternity with the Him.]
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Holy moley! No way no how does even the most saintly of the saints have any hope of ‘proving’ themselves ‘worthy’ of being in the company of God for a millisecond, much less eternity.

Doesn’t the Salve Regina end in ‘pray for us … that we may BE MADE worthy of the promises of Christ’? Don’t we say before each Communion ‘Lord I am not worthy’ - precisely because we aren’t ever truly worthy - and only His grace, His ‘saying the word’ gives us even a hope of being with Him in eternity?

We ARE here, I believe, to show that we love Him above all else, that we desire Him above all else, and that we are making heroic efforts to emulate and unite ourselves with Him, but we can never hope to ‘prove’ our worth.
 
eelpis said:
If fact the English bishops who tried St Joan of Arc condemned her a heretic. The Church authorities then handed her over to secular authority in Burgundy to carry out the burning.
The pope later declared the English bishops decision null and void.
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Right. I think they were in collusion with one French bishop too. All of the involved bishops acted without any Papal authority in regard to the fate of St. Joan.
 
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