Where does Authority Reside in the Orthodox Church?

Status
Not open for further replies.

The_Reginator

Active member
Could someone point me to a thread or web site that gives a succinct or simplified description of how the Orthodox Church arrives at authoritative doctrines or dogmas?
Does she have something similar to the Magisterium?

Thanks!
  • Reg.
 
The people discuss it with their priest. The priests discuss it with their bishop. The bishops get together and discuss it. The bishops arrive at a conclusion. The bishops tell the priests. The priests tell the people. If everyone agrees, it’s settled.

This is a very simplified version. Andrew has provided a better one.
 
Could someone point me to a thread or web site that gives a succinct or simplified description of how the Orthodox Church arrives at authoritative doctrines or dogmas?
Does she have something similar to the Magisterium?

Thanks!
  • Reg.
The church is the magisterium.

I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.

Do ye all then, imitating the same divine conduct, pay respect to one another, and let no one look upon his neighbor after the flesh, but do ye continually love each other in Jesus Christ. Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality.
Saint Ignatios of Antioch - epistle to the Magnesians
 
The people discuss it with their priest. The priests discuss it with their bishop. The bishops get together and discuss it. The bishops arrive at a conclusion. The bishops tell the priests. The priests tell the people. If everyone agrees, it’s settled.

This is a very simplified version. Andrew has provided a better one.
What mechanism within Orthodoxy is actived when some of the Bishops, some of the Priests and a portion of the people…
…Don’t agree on a theological matter?

I don’t know very much about the Eastern Orthodox Church aside from they accept the 1st 7 Ecumenical Councils as authoritatve…
…Is there the means within Orthodoxy should a serious theological issue come about.
…That the Orthodox from around the world would form a Council that was authoritative?

Also, does Eastern Orthodoxy have a Catechism or such a book for it’s faithful to go to…
…Should they have a question about a teaching?
 
What mechanism within Orthodoxy is actived when some of the Bishops, some of the Priests and a portion of the people…
…Don’t agree on a theological matter?
Depends. What’s the theological matter and what’s the disagreement?
I don’t know very much about the Eastern Orthodox Church aside from they accept the 1st 7 Ecumenical Councils as authoritatve…
…Is there the means within Orthodoxy should a serious theological issue come about.
Yes, I just described it.
…That the Orthodox from around the world would form a Council that was authoritative?
Yes. See above.
Also, does Eastern Orthodoxy have a Catechism or such a book for it’s faithful to go to…
…Should they have a question about a teaching?
Nope. There are catechisms but they don’t have the authority of the CCC. They’re used to teach catechumens. If an Orthodox has a question, they’d ask their Spiritual Father.
 
Depends. What’s the theological matter and what’s the disagreement?
A hypothetical situation whereas a ‘subverting soul’ teaching is being promulgated…
…Similar to the situation encountered in the 15th Chapter of the Book of Acts.

The descriptive: certain ‘Christian’ individuals outside of the Established Religious Authority…
…Went to the Church at Antioch and started subverting souls.
…I would understand any theological matter outside previously defined Dogma, which violates Dogma.
…To itself be the disagreement.

Acts 15,24
Since WE have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom WE gave no such commandment it seemed good to US, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with OUR beloved Barnabas and Paul

It would appear that “WE” = Apostolic Authority.

It would appear that “SOME” = Christians within the Church

Sorry man, I’m at work and just got called out…
…I’ll be back when I can.
 
But a Greek Orthodox spiritual father has no authority over a Russion Orthodox spiritual father, for example, or over any other of the spiritual fathers (or bishops) of the 14 (15?) autonomous Orthodox Churches.

So the question remains.

Each bishop of each autonomous Orthodox Church is the final authority. So there is no final authority for all Orthodox.

Please correct me if I’m wrong. If I’m wrong, who is the final (earthly) Authority for all Orthodox?

Jim Dandy
 
Each bishop of each autonomous Orthodox Church is the final authority. So there is no final authority for all Orthodox.
Yes there is - The Faith.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. If I’m wrong, who is the final (earthly) Authority for all Orthodox?
Christ. The Faith.

Your questions are confusing. It’s not as though everyone in Orthodoxy is competing with one another trying to enforce differing opinions. Is not Christ guiding His Church? Do we not have faith that He will save her from error? Do we not interact with each other in love? Are we not one body?

For 2,000 years Orthodoxy has survived in the manner that I, Andrew, and Michael have described. We’ve survived Islamic invasion, Communist oppression, and barriers of language, culture, and prejudice. We’ve been of One Faith, One Eucharistic Body, bound by love and collegiality with Christ as the only head of our Church. We’ve suffered no “reformation” and our parishes are not filled with liturgical abuses or ‘liberal’ heresies. 🤷

Our way seems to be working pretty well. Each Orthodox knows, from Chrismation or Cradle, that they are responsible for the preservation and continuation of the one true Faith. Is this something we should take lightly? Indeed it’s something we guard zealously. As such we’ve not suffered these issues you’re bringing up very often. When we have, in the past, we did (and you with us, then) the above and continued on our way. Orthodoxy will not change or compromise. As we say on the Sunday of Orthodoxy:
As the prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught,…as the Church has received… as the teachers have dogmatized,…as the Universe has agreed,… as Grace has shown forth,…as Truth has revealed,…as falsehood has been dissolved,…as Wisdom has presented,…as Christ Awarded,…thus we declare,…thus we assert,…thus we preach Christ our true God, and honor as Saints in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in Holy Icons; on the one hand worshipping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord; and on the other hand honoring as true servants of the same Lord of all and accordingly offering them veneration.
This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe.
 
A hypothetical situation whereas a ‘subverting soul’ teaching is being promulgated…
…Similar to the situation encountered in the 15th Chapter of the Book of Acts.

The descriptive: certain ‘Christian’ individuals outside of the Established Religious Authority…
…Went to the Church at Antioch and started subverting souls.
…I would understand any theological matter outside previously defined Dogma, which violates Dogma.
…To itself be the disagreement.

Acts 15,24
Since WE have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom WE gave no such commandment it seemed good to US, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with OUR beloved Barnabas and Paul

It would appear that “WE” = Apostolic Authority.

It would appear that “SOME” = Christians within the Church

Sorry man, I’m at work and just got called out…
…I’ll be back when I can.
Python, I can’t follow your question, and the differing colors and extended elipses is confusing me. At any rate, maybe someone else will answer, I think I’m heading to bed tonight, and I don’t know that I’ll be posting again this weekend. God Bless.
 
But a Greek Orthodox spiritual father has no authority over a Russion Orthodox spiritual father, for example, or over any other of the spiritual fathers (or bishops) of the 14 (15?) autonomous Orthodox Churches.
Says who?
So the question remains.
Each bishop of each autonomous Orthodox Church is the final authority. So there is no final authority for all Orthodox.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. If I’m wrong, who is the final (earthly) Authority for all Orthodox?
Jim Dandy
The Church is the final authority. It’s hard for people of western confessions to understand because they tend to think on such earthly terms, but the Church is a divine institution. 😉

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Whens the last time all the Patriarchs came together for dialogue? I see the Ignatius of Antioch quote when did this happen? Does it happen, Can it happen?

God Bless, Gary
 
Whens the last time all the Patriarchs came together for dialogue? I see the Ignatius of Antioch quote when did this happen? Does it happen, Can it happen?

God Bless, Gary
Actually, it happens all the time, at many levels. But, what do you mean by dialog, exactly?

I mean, are they supposed to be talking about the weather 😉 ? Seriously, they get together with issues or problems that concern the general welfare of the faith but they don’t often see the need to discuss church practices (like the liturgy, which does not require manipulation) nor discuss theological introductions/innovations (the faith is solid).

I remember that they all got together when the most recent Pope of Alexandria was installed, but that was more of a social gathering. Then they got together to all agree on the status of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. There are regular meetings of committees of delegates for other purposes, such as the Chambesy meetings and the Orthodox-non-Chalcedonian dialogs.

I posted in another place that the mother churches assembled in 2009 to erect a new umbrella organization for the North American Orthodox, it took effect almost immediately and retired the earlier SCOBA organization.

And for smaller matters there is always the telephone …
 
So the bishops are the final authority in Orthodoxy?Then who calls an Ecumenical Council and mandates that it be accepted? Wouldn’t the lack of a Pope lead to dissensions and factions warring against each other? Who is the VISIBLE center and leader of Orthodoxy? It has visible bishops over the priests. Who then if anyone takes the place of the Pope over the bishops? Anyone? Who is the enforcer of Orthodoxy?
 
So the bishops are the final authority in Orthodoxy?Then who calls an Ecumenical Council and mandates that it be accepted?
We don’t call an Ecumenical Council just because we feel like it. If there is no heresy to condemn, by would anyone need it? BTW, there have been councils since the split where all the churches gathered together and there is a council in the works to be convened in a few years to sort of some minor things among all the churches.
Wouldn’t the lack of a Pope lead to dissensions and factions warring against each other?
Ironically, this is exactly what happened in the West and they had a pope (Avignon papacy, Protestant Reformation, Anglican Schism, Old Catholics, etc.). 😦 The Orthodox have always understood the local church, that is to say the faithful and priests gathered around the bishop in the diocese, to be the fullness of Orthodoxy. The bishops in a given region are organized into a synod, headed by one of their own: a metropolitan or Patriarch. This organization has been faithfully preserved in Orthodoxy and was shared by Rome at one time.
Who is the VISIBLE center and leader of Orthodoxy? It has visible bishops over the priests.
The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the primus inter pares or ‘first among equals’ in the Orthodox Church. His position is one of honor, given to him after Old Rome left the Orthodox Church; a position that would return to her should she return to Orthodox unity. But the point of unity is our common faith and celebration of the Eucharist
Who then if anyone takes the place of the Pope over the bishops? Anyone? Who is the enforcer of Orthodoxy?
The Holy Spirit. 🙂 It is everyone’s job in Orthodox “to hold fast to the traditions” give us, that includes laity, clerics, monastics, etc. What is hard for many to understand is that the pope never exercised authority over the entire church as he does in the modern RCC. He did not interfer outside of his own diocese unless explicitly asked. That is a far cry from how it is today, a la Vatican I & II.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
A hypothetical situation whereas a ‘subverting soul’ teaching is being promulgated…
…Similar to the situation encountered in the 15th Chapter of the Book of Acts.

The descriptive: certain ‘Christian’ individuals outside of the Established Religious Authority…
…Went to the Church at Antioch and started subverting souls.
…I would understand any theological matter outside previously defined Dogma, which violates Dogma.
…To itself be the disagreement.

Acts 15,24
Since WE have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom WE gave no such commandment it seemed good to US, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with OUR beloved Barnabas and Paul

It would appear that “WE” = Apostolic Authority.

It would appear that “SOME” = Christians within the Church

Sorry man, I’m at work and just got called out…
…I’ll be back when I can.
Ok, I’m back!

What I was trying to say is that the 15th Chapter of the Book of Acts clearly shows…
…That there was a “core” group of Authority figures in the early Church.
…I.E. “no commandment from us to teach such and such” & " our beloved Paul" etc.

It wouldn’t be a stretch of logic at all to conclude that despite the Council of Jerusalem’s determination…
…There would have remained some individuals “within the Church” which rejected the Councils determination.
…At what point after rejection of defined teaching is the person or group considered “out of the Church”?

Jump forward 1000 years and apply the same rubrics we see in Acts 15…
…And while the Christian Church has increased greatly in size.
…Would not the same rubrics for determining correct doctrine still be in place?
 
Actually, it happens all the time, at many levels. But, what do you mean by dialog, exactly?

I mean, are they supposed to be talking about the weather 😉 ? Seriously, they get together with issues or problems that concern the general welfare of the faith but they don’t often see the need to discuss church practices (like the liturgy, which does not require manipulation) nor discuss theological introductions/innovations (the faith is solid).

I remember that they all got together when the most recent Pope of Alexandria was installed, but that was more of a social gathering. Then they got together to all agree on the status of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. There are regular meetings of committees of delegates for other purposes, such as the Chambesy meetings and the Orthodox-non-Chalcedonian dialogs.

I posted in another place that the mother churches assembled in 2009 to erect a new umbrella organization for the North American Orthodox, it took effect almost immediately and retired the earlier SCOBA organization.

And for smaller matters there is always the telephone …
Ok I’m getting the picture. I just wasn’t sure how free the movement is for the ROC today. Its Pentecost Michael may the Holy Spirit guide the churchs. 😉

God Bless, Gary
 
You make it sound like you expect us to be like a bunch of unruly children 😃
Well we are supposed to become like children, just not unruly ones.😉 Anyway I came from a tradition that recognized very little if any authority(besides the Bible), so maybe I overcompensate by looking for authoritarian leaders and institutions. Does not the Christ instituted structure of bishops and priests imply the need for a visible head? Both the RCC and the OC are aristocratic in government. I was asking who if anyone becomes the Orthodox Pope. From what I understand the closest thing to an Orthodox Pope is the patriarch of Constantinople? How much authority does he have?
 
We don’t call an Ecumenical Council just because we feel like it. If there is no heresy to condemn, by would anyone need it? BTW, there have been councils since the split where all the churches gathered together and there is a council in the works to be convened in a few years to sort of some minor things among all the churches.
Really? The whole Orthodox Church got together? Who called the meetings?

Ironically, this is exactly what happened in the West and they had a pope (Avignon papacy, Protestant Reformation, Anglican Schism, Old Catholics, etc.). 😦 The Orthodox have always understood the local church, that is to say the faithful and priests gathered around the bishop in the diocese, to be the fullness of Orthodoxy. The bishops in a given region are organized into a synod, headed by one of their own: a metropolitan or Patriarch. This organization has been faithfully preserved in Orthodoxy and was shared by Rome at one time.

Granted. People fight against the Pope for weird reasons.

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the primus inter pares or ‘first among equals’ in the Orthodox Church. His position is one of honor, given to him after Old Rome left the Orthodox Church; a position that would return to her should she return to Orthodox unity. But the point of unity is our common faith and celebration of the Eucharist

That’s what I thought. But he has no real authority over the Church?

The Holy Spirit. 🙂 It is everyone’s job in Orthodox “to hold fast to the traditions” give us, that includes laity, clerics, monastics, etc. What is hard for many to understand is that the pope never exercised authority over the entire church as he does in the modern RCC. He did not interfer outside of his own diocese unless explicitly asked. That is a far cry from how it is today, a la Vatican I & II.

He may not have interfered unless asked, but doesn’t the fact that he interfered even occasionally establish his right/responsibility? Good answer on holding the traditions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top