Where does Authority Reside in the Orthodox Church?

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I have a co-worker who is Greek Orthodox ( used to be Catholic ) who married a woman who is Greek Orthodox…
…Over a period of several years he claimed it made more sense to him.
…We talk often about religion.

Around two years or so ago he had mentioned that the Greek Orthodox were not in communion with the Russian Orthodox…
…Over some issue he didn’t really understand and this guys parish was instructed to NOT take Holy Communion at any R.O.C.
…Several months ago he informed me that his parish was informed everything was back to normal.
…And it would be nice if some people from the G.O.C. would visit the R.O.C.
…That got me to thinking how things got taken care of in the context of Acts 15.

If an issue is significant enough to cease communion between two churches of a “same body”?
…I would think it would be either mortal sin of some kind or heresy.
…I’ve got nothing against the E.O. and have enjoyed watching Fr Hopko’s videos online.
…It’s just odd about the Communion being forbidden.
 
…I was asking who if anyone becomes the Orthodox Pope…
There never was a Pope in the modern sense in the Holy Orthodox Catholic church. So there is no equivalent, no ‘enforcer’.

That doesn’t mean there is no authority. No one who is uncomfortable with religious authority would be happy in the Orthodox church. One doesn’t get to choose what to believe, one doesn’t come in teaching, one comes into the faith as a student to learn. No one who cannot humble himself and have a desire to be taught will make it.

It’s a tough affair to be Orthodox, the disciplines are rigorous. The worship is long by modern standards, the fasts (all fasts) are real fasts of deprivation, numerous and longer than one might expect.

Confession is never anonymous and normally neither is reception of communion.
Does not the Christ instituted structure of bishops and priests imply the need for a visible head?
The word ‘bishop’ means overseer, or supervisor. He watches over the flock, and has teaching authority. The bishop is the visible church head of his flock.

His is not a creating authority or inventing authority, it is teaching magisterial authority. In order to teach, one studies (and prays).

So what of another head, like a higher authority? The gathered church fathers addressed this issue in the first church-wide gathering after the persecutions ended. At Nicea they said …
" Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood, that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage [ie: election or choice] of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail. "

So the early church fathers saw the church as bishops (in Saint Ignatio’s sense) gathered into groups by province or kingdom led by the bishop of the local major cities. It was the bishops of the Province which elected new bishops, and the Metropolitan bishop was to certify the election. In fact the bishops of the Province elected their own Metropolitan too. Tradition was that three at least were required to ordain and consecrate a man as bishop, and the other bishops who may not have been able to make the journey were to send letters.

History shows that these separate Metropolitan organizations did not control one another, but strove to always teach the received Truth in common.

It is clear from Canon 8 of Ephesus that the independence of the ancient Apostolic churches was to be preserved. When the Metropolitan of Antioch began to extend his authority over the church on Cyprus the local Cyprus church appealed to the assembled fathers of that Council (Ephesus) and the assembled fathers responded with this: "… The Rulers of the holy churches in Cyprus shall enjoy, without dispute or injury, according to the Canons of the blessed Fathers and ancient custom, the right of performing for themselves the ordination of their excellent Bishops. The same rule shall be observed in the other dioceses and provinces everywhere, so that none of the God beloved Bishops shall assume control of any province which has not heretofore, from the very beginning, been under his own hand or that of his predecessors. But if any one has violently taken and subjected [a Province], he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of worldly honour be brought in under pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberty which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Deliverer of all men, hath given us by his own Blood.

Wherefore, this holy and ecumenical Synod has decreed that in every province the rights which heretofore, from the beginning, have belonged to it, shall be preserved to it, according to the old prevailing custom, unchanged and uninjured: every Metropolitan having permission to take, for his own security, a copy of these acts. And if any one shall bring forward a rule contrary to what is here determined, this holy and ecumenical Synod unanimously decrees that it shall be of no effect."

The title of Patriarch is something of an honorific, because there is prestige associated with some of these ancient Metropolitan Sees as mother churches from Apostolic days but one Metropolitan’s authority properly stops where another begins.

The goal is to maintain communion with the other dioceses and churches by being faithful to the received teaching and respectful of the neighboring bishop’s authority (the neighboring bishop having the same goal). It’s not that hard to understand.

It must seem remarkable to many people that Orthodoxy can hang together with a common faith under Christ out of sheer desire to do so. One probably couldn’t start a church today and get that to happen over several generations, but Holy Orthodoxy has Apostolic origins and it’s traditional faith stubbornly held, and confidence in the Holy Spirit.
 
“Around two years or so ago he had mentioned that the Greek Orthodox were not in communion with the Russian Orthodox…”

This is the situation I referred to when living between these two EO churchs. This was a few years back. There was strained relationship, not horrible but noticable. Like here. 😃

God Bless, Gary
 
It’s not as though everyone in Orthodoxy is competing with one another trying to enforce differing opinions. Is not Christ guiding His Church? Do we not have faith that He will save her from error? Do we not interact with each other in love? Are we not one body?

Orthodoxy will not change or compromise. As we say on the Sunday of Orthodoxy:/QUOTE]

Orthodoxy has changed in its moral teachings. Or did some Orthodox change and others retain the original teaching?

Until 1930, all Christians taught that artificial birth control was a serious sin and forbidden.
Anglicans first approved it, and all Protestant ecclesial communities soon followed. The Orthodox trajectory was longer**:**

The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, first printing
1963 (pg. 302)
*
“Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church.”
*
The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, revised 1984 (pg. 302)
*
“The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church.* Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods.* Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father.”

The Orthodox Church
New Edition
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
Penguin Books, 1997 (Pg. 296)
*
Orthodox.contraception
Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church.* In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries.* Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful.* In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences"​

As far as abortifacient contraceptives are concerned, the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church teaches the following:
QUOTE
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo in the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgments are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. [Taken from the official synodical document entitled, “The Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church,” issued by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in the year 2000]

Does Bishop Kallistos speak for all Orthodox?

Have all Orthodox adopted a similar teaching to the Russian Orthodox?

Orthodoxy needs a pope. According to Bishop K, at one time, the Orthodox spiritual fathers in one Church were teaching differently than the spiritual fathers of other Orthodox Churches. But now, apparently, all have caved in to the demands of modern society in the matter of contraception. ABC used to be a serious sin, but now it’s not?

This illustrates the point of my first post in this thread.

Pray for the unity of all Christendom.

Jim Dandy
 
Until 1930, all Christians taught that artificial birth control was a serious sin and forbidden.
Proof? I’ve seen this bandied around before, but I’ve never seen any proof of it. Yes it’s always been regarded as a serious thing, and abortificents obviously are in a different category, but this has come to be seen by me something oft repeated till many accept it as true.

As Archbishop Ware says, contraception is still discouraged.

I’m off to my Chrismation! In a few hours I will be full fledged Orthodox 👍
 
I have a co-worker who is Greek Orthodox ( used to be Catholic ) who married a woman who is Greek Orthodox…
…Over a period of several years he claimed it made more sense to him.
…We talk often about religion.

Around two years or so ago he had mentioned that the Greek Orthodox were not in communion with the Russian Orthodox…
…Over some issue he didn’t really understand and this guys parish was instructed to NOT take Holy Communion at any R.O.C.
…Several months ago he informed me that his parish was informed everything was back to normal.
…And it would be nice if some people from the G.O.C. would visit the R.O.C.
…That got me to thinking how things got taken care of in the context of Acts 15.

If an issue is significant enough to cease communion between two churches of a “same body”?
…I would think it would be either mortal sin of some kind or heresy.
…I’ve got nothing against the E.O. and have enjoyed watching Fr Hopko’s videos online.
…It’s just odd about the Communion being forbidden.
This is how discipline is maintained.

I do not know the anecdotal incident you are referring to but I suspect it is older than two years.

It can be analogous to the issues the Roman Catholic church has had over the years with the SSPX, Old Catholics and Sedevacantists. These things have to be dealt with and breaking off communion can be one part of the process, when they are resolved everyone is very happy.
 
Proof? I’ve seen this bandied around before, but I’ve never seen any proof of it. Yes it’s always been regarded as a serious thing, and abortificents obviously are in a different category, but this has come to be seen by me something oft repeated till many accept it as true.

As Archbishop Ware says, contraception is still discouraged.

I’m off to my Chrismation! In a few hours I will be full fledged Orthodox 👍
Prior to the 1930s all Christian denominations were united in their firm rejection of contraceptives. The Lambeth Conference of the Church of England (1930) marks the first departure from this unanimous prohibition, by advocating the use of artificial contraception when abstinence was deemed impracticable. The Federal Council of Churches (1931) equally adopted a policy of conservative advocation for artificial birth control methods. Most major Protestant traditions followed suit, and by 1961, the National Council of Churches declared a liberal policy on contraceptive use, subject to mutual consent between couples.
The total prohibition of artificial birth control methods by the Roman Catholic church, declared by Pope Pius XI in his 1930 encyclical, Casi Connubii, was maintained by the 1968 Humanae vitae (the encyclical of Pope Paul VI), and constitutes the present day policy of the church. The Catholic position on contraception is highly influenced by the natural law theory of Aristotle, Augustine and Aquinas, which deems that sexuality has as its end purpose, procreation; to interfere in this end would be a violation of the natural law, and thus, a sin. This view is maintained by some Anglicans, Evangelicals, and Christian fundamentalist denominations as well. The Catholic Church sanctions only abstinence and the Natural Family Planning method (NFP) as suitable techniques for birth control.
Unlike the Catholic tradition, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not discern a moral difference between artificial or natural birth control methods. They note that many Church Fathers, as well as the Pauline texts in the New Testament, do not strictly limit sexual intercourse to procreation; the Orthodox position is that sexual intercourse also constitutes an expression of love within the marriage contract. No official statement has been made on prohibitions for artificial contraceptives, while abortion, infanticide and permanent sterilization have been condemned. The Orthodox Church allows a married couple to make their own decisions on contraceptive use.

Contraception and religion.

God Bless, Gary
 
Well Gary, popes before Paul VI condemned nfp methods and taught that all forms of birth control were wrong. As far as not caving in to modern moral pressures, even the catholic communion has changed in its moral teachings a bit.

I think you are really over exaggerating how big a deal it is in orthodoxy. It’s not a blanket approval of abc but some cases where its allowed by the individual couple’s spiritual father.
 
Well Gary, popes before Paul VI condemned nfp methods and taught that all forms of birth control were wrong. As far as not caving in to modern moral pressures, even the catholic communion has changed in its moral teachings a bit.

I think you are really over exaggerating how big a deal it is in orthodoxy. It’s not a blanket approval of abc but some cases where its allowed by the individual couple’s spiritual father.
Wrong person, I wasn’t involved in that conversation. But added the historical background which isn’t anything unknown really.

I can’t speak for Jim as far as where he was going with his conversation. I’d have to really go back and re-read the thread.

God Bless, Gary
 
There never was a Pope in the modern sense in the Holy Orthodox Catholic church. So there is no equivalent, no ‘enforcer’.

That doesn’t mean there is no authority. No one who is uncomfortable with religious authority would be happy in the Orthodox church. One doesn’t get to choose what to believe, one doesn’t come in teaching, one comes into the faith as a student to learn. No one who cannot humble himself and have a desire to be taught will make it.

It’s a tough affair to be Orthodox, the disciplines are rigorous. The worship is long by modern standards, the fasts (all fasts) are real fasts of deprivation, numerous and longer than one might expect.

Confession is never anonymous and normally neither is reception of communion.

History shows that these separate Metropolitan organizations did not control one another, but strove to always teach the received Truth in common.

The title of Patriarch is something of an honorific, because there is prestige associated with some of these ancient Metropolitan Sees as mother churches from Apostolic days but one Metropolitan’s authority properly stops where another begins.
I attended an Orthodox Church for some time before I started looking into Catholicism. The reason I switched was that I started to doubt their teachings on the Pope, how he had “broken away” from the other four patriarchs. Really? I do like the Byzantine rite with all the chanting.

So the Metropolitans have authority over different regions of bishops. Are they equivalent to an archbishop? I’m probably thinking with a Roman mindset. It just seems to me that the heirarchy is incomplete without a visible head. Christ is the invisible head, but he has visible flesh and blood bishops, so…-thanks for clearing some things up!
 
Wrong person, I wasn’t involved in that conversation. But added the historical background which isn’t anything unknown really.

I can’t speak for Jim as far as where he was going with his conversation. I’d have to really go back and re-read the thread.

God Bless, Gary
My apologies then for mis-reading.
 
Prior to the 1930s all Christian denominations were united in their firm rejection of contraceptives.
Yes, that’s what Roman Catholics keep telling me. I’m asking for proof of this united firm rejection.
 
The people discuss it with their priest. The priests discuss it with their bishop. The bishops get together and discuss it. The bishops arrive at a conclusion. The bishops tell the priests. The priests tell the people. If everyone agrees, it’s settled.

This is a very simplified version. Andrew has provided a better one.
JL: Is there an Orthodox universal authority that can define and BIND ALL national Orthodox Communities to a certain dogma?
 
Yes, that’s what Roman Catholics keep telling me. I’m asking for proof of this united firm rejection.
We know the CC stance I’m not seeing the united firm stance by the EO? Is that what your asking?

God Bless, Gary
 
We know the CC stance I’m not seeing the united firm stance by the EO? Is that what your asking?

God Bless, Gary
No, that is not what I’m asking.

Roman Catholics recite all the time that before 1930 *all *Christians believed that the use of contraception was sinful and always wrong.

I want proof that before 1930 all Christians believed that the use of contraception was sinful and always wrong.
 
No, that is not what I’m asking.

Roman Catholics recite all the time that before 1930 *all *Christians believed that the use of contraception was sinful and always wrong.

I want proof that before 1930 all Christians believed that the use of contraception was sinful and always wrong.
The Anti birth control message is reiterated many times in subsequent years by Catholic church leaders. Clement of Alexandria (AD195) says, “Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted”.

How about the united firm stance by the EO now?

God Bless, Gary
 
The Anti birth control message is reiterated many times in subsequent years by Catholic church leaders. Clement of Alexandria (AD195) says, “Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted”.

How about the united firm stance by the EO now?

God Bless, Gary
You’re not listening or addressing what I am saying.

I do not doubt Roman Catholics have a long and solid foundation for their saying contraception is a serious and possibly sinful act. Whether Catholics have always taught the complete sinfulness of contraception I don’t know and frankly I don’t really care.

What I doubt is what Catholics always say, that Protestants as well have always taught this sinfulness of contraception and then for some unknown reason in 1930 all the Protestant denominations (and, you imply, the Orthodox but let’s not confuse things).got together and decided to change their historic teachings.

So here’s what I am asking for: Proof that Protestants taught the sinfulness of contraception before 1930 as the Roman Catholics claim.

However this is getting off topic. Perhaps this should be split into a different thread.
 
You’re not listening or addressing what I am saying.

I do not doubt Roman Catholics have a long and solid foundation for their saying contraception is a serious and possibly sinful act. Whether Catholics have always taught the complete sinfulness of contraception I don’t know and frankly I don’t really care.

What I doubt is what Catholics always say, that Protestants as well have always taught this sinfulness of contraception and then for some unknown reason in 1930 all the Protestant denominations (and, you imply, the Orthodox but let’s not confuse things).got together and decided to change their historic teachings.

So here’s what I am asking for: Proof that Protestants taught the sinfulness of contraception before 1930 as the Roman Catholics claim.

However this is getting off topic. Perhaps this should be split into a different thread.
I’m not sure about about that. I hear the EO is uniting in 2013 though. I’m sure they’ll solidify.

Its diifficult today, to many Godless social/political systems. Really my concern with this is here in the US at the moment. Seems the thinking here leads to a path of abortion as a Birth Control. Way out of hand.

God Bless, Gary
 
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