Where does Authority Reside in the Orthodox Church?

[jam070406]

If we’re “indoctrinated” it’s by your own church. *As Unam Sanctam *says:

Who was that written to Rawb?
Are you sure you want to be on the wrong side of history here?
I’m sure you in your Eastern Orthodoxy would have been far from his mind at the time. Let’s not flatter ourselves eh?

Would you rather the Chinese faithful be subject to the bishops imposed by the current Communist regime?
Would you rather the state dictate what is and isn’t necessary for salvation?

 

[Rawb]

Who said anything about your church? Do you think the Pope flies around the world looking for bishops to pluck from their positions? There are procedures and channels. He is appealed to, to act. Get real man. Where do dream up this fantasy world??
He doesn’t micro manage everything, everywhere. And he doesn’t usurp local authority.

Ok, leaving my church out of it (which though, in a reunion, America would be organized into it’s own local church and the Pope would have no authority over it either).

Even in those diocese included in the Roman Patriarchate the Pope of Rome would have no right to remove bishops or get involved in any diocese business.

This is not a fantasy - Orthodox know exactly how Roman Catholics view and treat their pope. If they want to do that fine - but Orthodox will have no talks of reunion with the Pope having the authority, power, and rights that Catholics have given him since the Schism.

If we were members of the same church, and I said to you “I don’t care what the pope has said about the (insert issue of choice here), he’s not my bishop.” Would you be ok with the fact that that’s an acceptable attitude? That the Pope could make any pronouncement he wants and we’re free to ignore him and still be good Christians? That if the pope would have to ask permission of the Roman Synod, who would all have to agree, to do something? That the pope is just any other bishop?

 

[Harpazo]

I’m not sure your point.
Actually, come to think of it, I’m glad the Pope challenged the secular authority and told them the Faithful was subject to him in matters of Faith and not the secular authority.

That’s because in Unam Sanctam he makes himself the secular and spiritual authority. See the “two swords” issue. In Pastor Aeternus he is subject to no one, bishop, council, whatever it may be. Lumen Gentium just logically went on from that saying the faithful must submit their intellect and will to the Roman Pontiff, even if something isn’t ex cathedra.

Authority in Orthodoxy clearly works quite differently.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Rawb]

Who was that written to Rawb?
Are you sure you want to be on the wrong side of history here?
I’m sure you in your Eastern Orthodoxy would have been far from his mind at the time. Let’s not flatter ourselves eh?

He said what he said. EVERY human creature. That would include the Eastern Orthodox, though we beg to differ. He may have not been meaning to speak to us, but what he said does speak to us.

Would you rather the Chinese faithful be subject to the bishops imposed by the current Communist regime?
Would you rather the state dictate what is and isn’t necessary for salvation?

Orthodoxy has survived Communism in the past, with the martyrs to prove it.

I demand Christ dictates what is necessary for Salvation.

 

[jam070406]

Ok, leaving my church out of it (which though, in a reunion, America would be organized into it’s own local church and the Pope would have no authority over it either).

Even in those diocese included in the Roman Patriarchate the Pope of Rome would have no right to remove bishops or get involved in any diocese business.

This is not a fantasy - Orthodox know exactly how Roman Catholics view and treat their pope. If they want to do that fine - but Orthodox will have no talks of reunion with the Pope having the authority, power, and rights that Catholics have given him since the Schism.

If we were members of the same church, and I said to you “I don’t care what the pope has said about the (insert issue of choice here), he’s not my bishop.” Would you be ok with the fact that that’s an acceptable attitude? That the Pope could make any pronouncement he wants and we’re free to ignore him and still be good Christians? That if the pope would have to ask permission of the Roman Synod, who would all have to agree, to do something? That the pope is just any other bishop?

Why speculate on what ifs?
Let the hierarchy hash out the details.
Like I said, the Pope is there to call upon when needed.

 

[Rawb]

Why speculate on what ifs?
Let the hierarchy hash out the details.
Like I said, the Pope is there to call upon when needed.

Your evasion of the questions is duly noted. I’m done attempting this conversation.

 

[jam070406]

That’s because in Unam Sanctam he makes himself the secular and spiritual authority. See the “two swords” issue. In Pastor Aeternus he is subject to no one, bishop, council, whatever it may be. Lumen Gentium just logically went on from that saying the faithful must submit their intellect and will to the Roman Pontiff, even if something isn’t ex cathedra.

Authority in Orthodoxy clearly works quite differently.

In Christ,
Andrew

So what? Would you rather submit to Stalin or the dictator of North Korea. Why do you always project everything on yourself while dismissing historical context?

 

[jam070406]

He said what he said. EVERY human creature. That would include the Eastern Orthodox, though we beg to differ. He may have not been meaning to speak to us, but what he said does speak to us.

Orthodoxy has survived Communism in the past, with the martyrs to prove it.

I demand Christ dictates what is necessary for Salvation.

Swell Rawb, it would mean even more if he were writing you but he wasn’t.
He was rebuking secular authority and actually defending the spiritual well being of the faithful.
It’s not always about you, sorry.

Oh, and he used strong language. Boo hoo!!

 

[jam070406]

Your evasion of the questions is duly noted. I’m done attempting this conversation.

No Rawb, I would not mind if the Pope didn’t meddle in your affairs. Satisfied?
I don’t believe he would, therefore there was really no point for me to answer. I thought I made that clear. Not that my opinion would matter in the grand scope anyway!?

 

[Harpazo]

So what? Would you rather submit to Stalin or the dictator of North Korea. Why do you always project everything on yourself while dismissing historical context?

Huh? This world is but a shadow. I shall submit myself to Christ and those whom He has chosen.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

Huh? This world is but a shadow. I shall submit myself to Christ and those whom He has chosen.

In Christ,
Andrew

Of course! So why would you be opposed to the Pope writing say, the Chinese government and saying you have no authority to appoint our Bishops, the authority is here and not with you (Chinese government)

 

[Harpazo]

Of course! So why would you be opposed to the Pope writing say, the Chinese government and saying you have no authority to appoint our Bishops, the authority is here and not with you (Chinese government)

I don’t know how I’m getting tied up in these Chinese affairs, but I’d venture to say that the pope is going against his own church’s history in doing that (though I can certainly understand his reservations about the PRC). Considering the fact that in the Middle Ages, local kings and rules appointed bishops and priests, especially in England, but also in the HRE. It wasn’t really until the high middle ages when the popes had problems with it and wanted to be able to consecrate all the bishops themselves.

Since in reality in the RCC, there is really only the RCC and the pope having jurisdiction, he can do whatever he pleases in his own church, per Pastor Aeternus. However, if it was a similar situation in Orthodoxy, as sadly happened in the last century in Russia, a different tact would be taken.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

I don’t know how I’m getting tied up in these Chinese affairs, but I’d venture to say that the pope is going against his own church’s history in doing that (though I can certainly understand his reservations about the PRC). Considering the fact that in the Middle Ages, local kings and rules appointed bishops and priests, especially in England, but also in the HRE. It wasn’t really until the high middle ages when the popes had problems with it and wanted to be able to consecrate all the bishops themselves.

Since in reality in the RCC, there is really only the RCC and the pope having jurisdiction, he can do whatever he pleases in his own church, per Pastor Aeternus. However, if it was a similar situation in Orthodoxy, as sadly happened in the last century in Russia, a different tact would be taken.

In Christ,
Andrew

The Pope cannot “do whatever he pleases”

 

[Harpazo]

The Pope cannot “do whatever he pleases”

As per Pastor Aeternus:

Ch. 3, no. 2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

and

Ch. 3, 9. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

and

Ch. 4, 9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

If he really wanted to, he could proclaim a doctrine, such as what Rawb said, without the consent of anyone else if he was so inclined. Of course, I don’t think that Benedict XVI would, but that leaves a lot of room for someone else to do so. That’s pretty intense, if you ask me.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

As per Pastor Aeternus:

and

and

If he really wanted to, he could proclaim a doctrine, such as what Rawb said, without the consent of anyone else if he was so inclined. Of course, I don’t think that Benedict XVI would, but that leaves a lot of room for someone else to do so. That’s pretty intense, if you ask me.

In Christ,
Andrew

Sorry, I live in 21st century USA. I just can’t relate to the historical time or context of when that was written. And I’m just not that pessimistic or paranoid.

 

[Harpazo]

Sorry, I live in 21st century USA. I just can’t relate to the historical time or context of when that was written. And I’m just not that pessimistic or paranoid.

Hey, me too! Something we have in common. It’s what your church teaches, though and that’s the fact of the matter. We may disagree on these and other issues, but if unity is to occur between our churches (which I think you want, too), these issues have to be tackled.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

Hey, me too! Something we have in common. It’s what your church teaches, though and that’s the fact of the matter. We may disagree on these and other issues, but if unity is to occur between our churches (which I think you want, too), these issues have to be tackled.

In Christ,
Andrew

Well, it’ll help if tired polemics were put to rest. And writings were not wrentched or cherry picked out of context.

 

[Harpazo]

Well, it’ll help if tired polemics were put to rest. And writings were not wrentched or cherry picked out of context.

These aren’t polemics at all. These are legitimate Orthodox concerns. Many times Latins expect us to just submit to Rome because they did and can’t understand our reservations, especially with documents like this. Perhaps if Latins wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss these things as polemics, we could make greater strides. That is my hope.

I linked to the document, so if I am missing anything, please show me where.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[jam070406]

These aren’t polemics at all. These are legitimate Orthodox concerns. Many times Latins expect us to just submit to Rome because they did and can’t understand our reservations, especially with documents like this. Perhaps if Latins wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss these things as polemics, we could make greater strides. That is my hope.

I linked to the document, so if I am missing anything, please show me where.

In Christ,
Andrew

Sorry I was more thinking of Unam Sanctam when I made my last comment.

As far as Pastor Aeternus…
Yes, you missed this:

1. This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the Supreme and Universal Pastor; for St. Gregory the Great says: “My honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honor, when it is denied to none of those to whom honor is due.”[51]

 

[jam070406]

These aren’t polemics at all. These are legitimate Orthodox concerns. Many times Latins expect us to just submit to Rome because they did and can’t understand our reservations, especially with documents like this. Perhaps if Latins wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss these things as polemics, we could make greater strides. That is my hope.

I linked to the document, so if I am missing anything, please show me where.

In Christ,
Andrew

The document that you use to assert that the Pope is a tyrant and wants to usurp your power is the same document that reaffirms and supports your own power and the Pope’s affirmation that he can’t detract you from it, but only help strengthen you in it.