Where does Christ fit in the LDS teaching on Salvation?

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello all;

In another discussion thread, an issue was raised that I would like to carry over to a new discussion. The issue is:

DOES THE LDS CHURCH TEACH THAT A PERSON’S GOOD WORKS APART FROM CHRIST CAN MERIT SALVATION.

I would like to give LDS members the opportunity to explain what they believe about good works and salvation. Is there a requirement that works be done in and through Jesus Christ or does the LDS Church teach that we are to simply look to Jesus as the perfect example for living a life pleasing to God?

I would like to hear the LDS perspective on this issue. What part, if any, does Jesus play in an individual’s personal salvation.

Thanks,
-Rob

 

[RebeccaJ]

bump

 

[rockjock]

DOES THE LDS CHURCH TEACH THAT A PERSON’S GOOD WORKS APART FROM CHRIST CAN MERIT SALVATION.

No. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches that without Christ and His Atonement there is no salvation. Need Christ and good works.

jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html

 

[MistyAnn0414]

First you need to know that the Jesus of Mormonism isn’t the Jesus of Christianity, so he has no power to save anyone. Secondly salvation in Mormonism comes by being baptized into the Mormon Church, along with their temple ordinances, and then comes Jesus. In Mormonism you are saved by Jesus only after all you can do.

 

[ParkerD]

Hello all;

…
I would like to give LDS members the opportunity to explain what they believe about good works and salvation. Is there a requirement that works be done in and through Jesus Christ or does the LDS Church teach that we are to simply look to Jesus as the perfect example for living a life pleasing to God?

I would like to hear the LDS perspective on this issue. What part, if any, does Jesus play in an individual’s personal salvation.

Thanks,
-Rob

Hi, Rob, and good day to you with the blessings of the Sabbath,

For an active LDS member, Jesus Christ is absolutely central to an individual’s personal salvation, not only because of His atoning grace and His power to lift us up to the presence of the Father and be our Advocate before the Father, but also because we seek and experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus in our everyday lives so that we feel His helping influence in our desire and efforts to live more like He would live if He were in the exact set of circumstances we are in.

“What would Jesus do?”

is a question the LDS members ask themselves as they engage in life’s challenges (such as resolving conflicts with people or seeking to find a job or engaging in seeking to thwart the attempts of the adversary to defeat God’s purposes on this earth) and decisions, and that leads to ongoing repentance because we know we fall short of “what Jesus would do” and the next time we try and do better.

So with that in mind, I would say that everything a person does if that question is sincerely in their mind (which we are taught at a young age is a vital question to ask ourselves) is done “in and through Jesus Christ.”

The LDS are familiar that even prophets need to evaluate whether they are “trusting in the arm of flesh” meaning trusting in their own personal abilities aside from trusting in Christ and His help and His ongoing grace. So all the more so with average people like us–“cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.” (2 Nephi 3:34) We feel to ask, “O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness!” (v. 33)

Then, life becomes pretty joyful as we see what He can do with us, and are amazed at how much richer and fuller He makes our life as we trust in His grace and the “robe of His righteousness”. (I assume others such as yourself feel pretty much that same way, kind of like C.S.Lewis expressed the feeling of being built into a “castle” rather than a “cottage”.)

Peace.

 

[Pacos_Pete]

ParkerD Amen to what your stated, I would like MistyAnn explain what is the difference between her Jesus Christ and The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints’ Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Did anyone get out of ParkerD’s post an answer to the OP? Because, I’m not seeing that the topic of Salvation was addressed at all. Let alone, the relationship of works to Salvation.

 

[lax16]

Hi, Rob, and good day to you with the blessings of the Sabbath,

For an active LDS member, Jesus Christ is absolutely central to an individual’s personal salvation, not only because of His atoning grace and His power to lift us up to the presence of the Father and be our Advocate before the Father, but also because we seek and experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus in our everyday lives so that we feel His helping influence in our desire and efforts to live more like He would live if He were in the exact set of circumstances we are in.

“What would Jesus do?”

is a question the LDS members ask themselves as they engage in life’s challenges (such as resolving conflicts with people or seeking to find a job or engaging in seeking to thwart the attempts of the adversary to defeat God’s purposes on this earth) and decisions, and that leads to ongoing repentance because we know we fall short of “what Jesus would do” and the next time we try and do better.

So with that in mind, I would say that everything a person does if that question is sincerely in their mind (which we are taught at a young age is a vital question to ask ourselves) is done “in and through Jesus Christ.”

The LDS are familiar that even prophets need to evaluate whether they are “trusting in the arm of flesh” meaning trusting in their own personal abilities aside from trusting in Christ and His help and His ongoing grace. So all the more so with average people like us–“cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.” (2 Nephi 3:34) We feel to ask, “O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness!” (v. 33)

Then, life becomes pretty joyful as we see what He can do with us, and are amazed at how much richer and fuller He makes our life as we trust in His grace and the “robe of His righteousness”. (I assume others such as yourself feel pretty much that same way, kind of like C.S.Lewis expressed the feeling of being built into a “castle” rather than a “cottage”.)

Peace.

But Parker, is it NECESSARY to do works for salvation? Specifically, is it necessary to perform LDS works for salvation? For example, temple ordinances.

 

[ParkerD]

But Parker, is it NECESSARY to do works for salvation? Specifically, is it necessary to perform LDS works for salvation? For example, temple ordinances.

Lax16,

The word “salvation” within the context of “one heaven for all” or “the opposite” is not how I look at that word, but if a Catholic were to ask me that question then, knowing what I know, I would say, “Whatever your personal Biblically based beliefs and the guidance of the Good Shepherd and the Holy Ghost teach you to do, then definitely do, and that will lead to the atoning grace of Christ in your life and through Him you will have salvation.” I think Matthew 7:21-27 and Matthew 25 teach that there is definitely a need to “do” in order to please God.

If someone asks me the kind of question that the rich young man asked the Savior about inheriting “eternal life” (Luke 18:18), then I would say that a person needs to be willing to have a personal relationship with the Savior so that they are filled with light and love and that they feel His guidance through the Holy Spirit in their everyday life, even to the point of making covenants with Him and with the Father and looking around themselves for ways to serve others as they follow the Savior’s lead. Then they won’t need to ask about “salvation” because they will have felt His guiding hand in their life and will be on a path that leads to “eternal life” through doing what the Savior guides them to do. They will feel so personally connected to Him (like the betrothal relationship you noted you understood from Hosea) that they will have a sense of being on the path and having personal fulfillment only through staying on that path, that eventually leads (through Him) to eternal life.

For the active LDS member, covenant making and covenant keeping are the essence of living the gospel, in an internalized process of “becoming” rather than an “arrival”. Temple ordinances are part of covenant making and part of serving others, for active LDS adult members who live near a temple.

 

[MistyAnn0414]

ParkerD Amen to what your stated, I would like MistyAnn explain what is the difference between her Jesus Christ and The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints’ Jesus Christ.

No problem. To start with your prophet Gordon B. Hinckely stated that you believe in a different Jesus than the rest of Christianity.
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints* ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.*** For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

The Jesus of Mormonism is the Jesus who your religion teaches isn’t God incarnate, and who bled and paid for the sins of the world in Gethsemane not on the cross alone.

As I stated earlier Jesus isn’t enough for eternal life in Mormonism, knowledge of secret handshakes, tokens, signs and a secret name are required to enter into the Father’s presence.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

The word “salvation” within the context of “one heaven for all” or “the opposite” is not how I look at that word, but if a Catholic were to ask me that question then, knowing what I know, I would say, “Whatever your personal Biblically based beliefs and the guidance of the Good Shepherd and the Holy Ghost teach you to do, then definitely do, and that will lead to the atoning grace of Christ in your life and through Him you will have salvation.” I think Matthew 7:21-27 and Matthew 25 teach that there is definitely a need to “do” in order to please God.

But then we are not all one in thought and purpose as a Church, are we?
What about the Protestant view?

If someone asks me the kind of question that the rich young man asked the Savior about inheriting “eternal life” (Luke 18:18), then I would say that a person needs to be willing to have a personal relationship with the Savior so that they are filled with light and love and that they feel His guidance through the Holy Spirit in their everyday life, even to the point of making covenants with Him and with the Father and looking around themselves for ways to serve others as they follow the Savior’s lead. Then they won’t need to ask about “salvation” because they will have felt His guiding hand in their life and will be on a path that leads to “eternal life” through doing what the Savior guides them to do. They will feel so personally connected to Him (like the betrothal relationship you noted you understood from Hosea) that they will have a sense of being on the path and having personal fulfillment only through staying on that path, that eventually leads (through Him) to eternal life.

I agree that one cannot separate faith and good works - they go hand in hand.

For the active LDS member, covenant making and covenant keeping are the essence of living the gospel, in an internalized process of “becoming” rather than an “arrival”. Temple ordinances are part of covenant making and part of serving others, for active LDS adult members who live near a temple.

But Jesus never taught temple ordinances.
The OT never taught temple ordinances that the LDS teach.
The Book of Mormon does not speak of temple ordinances.
So, how it that the LDS are living the gospel? Maybe they are living what they/you believe to be revelation from a prophet, but that is not the gospel.

 

[lax16]

bump

 

[SteveVH]

Lax16,

The word “salvation” within the context of “one heaven for all” or “the opposite” is not how I look at that word, but if a Catholic were to ask me that question then, knowing what I know, I would say, “Whatever your personal Biblically based beliefs and the guidance of the Good Shepherd and the Holy Ghost teach you to do, then definitely do, and that will lead to the atoning grace of Christ in your life and through Him you will have salvation.” I think Matthew 7:21-27 and Matthew 25 teach that there is definitely a need to “do” in order to please God.

If someone asks me the kind of question that the rich young man asked the Savior about inheriting “eternal life” (Luke 18:18), then I would say that a person needs to be willing to have a personal relationship with the Savior so that they are filled with light and love and that they feel His guidance through the Holy Spirit in their everyday life, even to the point of making covenants with Him and with the Father and looking around themselves for ways to serve others as they follow the Savior’s lead. Then they won’t need to ask about “salvation” because they will have felt His guiding hand in their life and will be on a path that leads to “eternal life” through doing what the Savior guides them to do. They will feel so personally connected to Him (like the betrothal relationship you noted you understood from Hosea) that they will have a sense of being on the path and having personal fulfillment only through staying on that path, that eventually leads (through Him) to eternal life.

For the active LDS member, covenant making and covenant keeping are the essence of living the gospel, in an internalized process of “becoming” rather than an “arrival”. Temple ordinances are part of covenant making and part of serving others, for active LDS adult members who live near a temple.

When you use the word “salvation”, from what do you believe you are being saved? A lower state in heaven or eternity in hell?

 

[KathleenGee]

I read a conversion story of a Muslim who practiced ‘jinn’ within Islam…practices uncommon.

Then he went into a sudden conversion to Christ and was totally changed – while still on his knees.

We only need Christ for our salvation…the true Living God.

 

[ParkerD]

But then we are not all one in thought and purpose as a Church, are we?
What about the Protestant view?

Lax16,

No, but that is the reason I had stated that one seeks the guidance of the Good Shepherd, and one becomes a “doer of the word” and not just a “hearer of the word”. Just because people start from different places in their understanding, does not mean the Good Shepherd can’t guide them to where He would want them to come, so long as they let Him do it. It doesn’t mean they all have to belong to the same “church”, but they become a “congregation of believers” if they truly do believe in Him and follow Him to the best of their abilities. I have had conversations with a few Protestants who expressed that being “saved” meant that they would be a “doer of the word” because they would be so inclined, because of the change in their heart.

But Jesus never taught temple ordinances.

Except to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration. (A “mountain” is a scriptural symbol for a temple or a “place of holiness with God”.)

The OT never taught temple ordinances that the LDS teach.

Not exactly the same, no–but we have a “new covenant” gospel, correct? (as prophesied in Jeremiah). That does not mean covenant making was supposed to end under the new covenant gospel. Temple ordinances involve covenant making as helps toward living a covenant life.

The Book of Mormon does not speak of temple ordinances.

No, but they built temples “after the manner (but using wood and not as much gold) as Solomon’s temple.” And they had occasions where they “saw and heard unspeakable things.” So there is a precedent for “unspeakable things” and “hidden wisdom.”

So, how it that the LDS are living the gospel?

Those covenants involve promising to obey God and keep His commandments, to uphold the marriage covenant when married, to love others to the point of caring for the poor and needy and the sick and widows and fatherless, and to have Christ at the center of everything an LDS person does, day in and day out.

So if those things don’t seem to you to mean living the gospel, then I would only say that it would be well for you to read the Bible more and you will find that the Bible teaches those very concepts.

 

[ParkerD]

When you use the word “salvation”, from what do you believe you are being saved? A lower state in heaven or eternity in hell?

SteveVH,

In the first paragraph, I had written from the perspective of those who want to be saved from “eternity in hell” since that is the perspective that seems to be the general consensus of what “salvation” means, if I have understood correctly.

When I think of salvation personally, I think of having a “calling and election sure” as Peter wrote about in his epistle, and of “he that overcometh shall inherit all things, …and he shall be my son.” That is a condition to be “saved to” rather than “saved from”, and it still requires Christ’s atoning grace but also requires “overcoming by faith” and being ready to go to work learning a great deal more and expending “faith effort” as well as “love effort” throughout eternity.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

In the first paragraph, I had written from the perspective of those who want to be saved from “eternity in hell” since that is the perspective that seems to be the general consensus of what “salvation” means, if I have understood correctly.

When I think of salvation personally, I think of having a “calling and election sure” as Peter wrote about in his epistle, and of “he that overcometh shall inherit all things, …and he shall be my son.” That is a condition to be “saved to” rather than “saved from”, and it still requires Christ’s atoning grace but also requires “overcoming by faith” and being ready to go to work learning a great deal more and expending “faith effort” as well as “love effort” throughout eternity.

The sin of Adam and Eve brought death into the world. Not just physical death, but more importantly, spiritual death. God warned them before they ate of the fruit that this would be the case. The serpent lied to them and they lost trust in God. They believed the serpent instead. Even in their disobedience, God loved them so much that He promised them a Savior. To save them from what? Prior to the sin, which brought death, they were not in need of a Savior. This is the entire plot on which the story of salvation history is based. From that point forward man would be waiting for the Savior because without Him we were doomed to eternal death.

Clearly, we are saved from death, spiritual death, which is eternal. We call this spiritual death, hell, and Jesus spoke about it often. The Savior came to bring us eternal life. He came to restore that which had been lost through the disobedience of Adam and Eve and, subsequently, our own disobedience. The Mormon faith has watered down the reality of hell, IMO, and thus lost the true meaning of salvation. The notion that it really doesn’t matter what one does, you will still make it to some level of heaven, is incredibly dangerous. If I am drowning and someone comes to rescue me, I am being rescued from death, not rescued to a better life. I realize that I have oversimplified this, but that is my understanding of the Mormon position in a nutshell. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

 

[wmscott]

No problem. To start with your prophet Gordon B. Hinckely stated that you believe in a different Jesus than the rest of Christianity.
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints* ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.*** For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

The Jesus of Mormonism is the Jesus who your religion teaches isn’t God incarnate, and who bled and paid for the sins of the world in Gethsemane not on the cross alone.

As I stated earlier Jesus isn’t enough for eternal life in Mormonism, knowledge of secret handshakes, tokens, signs and a secret name are required to enter into the Father’s presence.

Is any LDS going to respond to Misty? I am curious as to what the answer is going to be

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Since this thread only had a few responses THREE YEARS AGO, I’m going to let it slide. In the future, do not resurrect old threads.

 

[wmscott]

Since this thread only had a few responses THREE YEARS AGO, I’m going to let it slide. In the future, do not resurrect old threads.

WOW I just saw that. If it was a snake it would have bit me.