Where does it say this in the Bible?

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Where in the bible does it say that Priests can turn the bread and wine into the body and flesh of Christ? I just cant find it and if it is not in there is then considered a Sacred Tradition.

Disclaimer–Im not catholic–but I would like to know where the Catholics get this. Im also not looking for a disagreement on it just info.

Thanks

AFH

 

[Odell]

I dont have a answer to that im sure someone better qulified could. All I know is that not everything christian is explicitly spelled out in scripture. Like the word trinity no where is that word in the bible. and no where does it say that all three persons are equally God but different persons. It is not there as we believe it. You can give the bible to 1000 people who have never heard of Jesus and they would not come up with the doctrineof the trinity. It has been passed down threw sacred tradition.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I dont have a answer to that im sure someone better qulified could. All I know is that not everything christian is explicitly spelled out in scripture. Like the word trinity no where is that word in the bible. and no where does it say that all three persons are equally God but different persons. It is not there as we believe it. You can give the bible to 1000 people who have never heard of Jesus and they would not come up with the doctrineof the trinity. It has been passed down threw sacred tradition.

Yes and of course I believe in the trinity and what you say. The Trinity can be figured out by studying Scripture and of course having the Holy Spirit guiding you to the truth. I figure the CC has some Scripture that they use to prove this.

Thank you Odell.

 

[LilyM]

If you’re looking for the scripture upon which we mainly base our ideas about the Real Presence - the first would be the whole Bread of Life discourse in John 6.

Jesus is pretty insistent in that chapter about his flesh being real food and his blood real drink - repeats himself several times, allows people to get the (in the CC opinion correct) idea that he is talking about really eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

He not only doesn’t correct them when they walk away disgusted, but challenges the Apostles as to whether they’re going to walk away too. It is truly a ‘hard teaching’ - which of course believing in a symbolic presence isn’t.

Combine this with the terms Christ uses at the Last Supper. ‘This is my body … this is my blood’. He doesn’t speak in vague terms, doesn’t say anything about the bread and wine being symbolic or ‘containing’ his body and blood, doesn’t simply repeat ‘I am the bread of life’ or ‘I am the vine’ or anything … but shows them the bread and the wine and says this IS my body … this IS my blood.

Then there’s St Paul talking about eating and drinking our own damnation if we don’t discern the Lord’s body - nothing in there about discerning bread and wine or discerning a symbolic or consubstantial presence.

Having said that, of course the doctrine has largely formed through Sacred Tradition. We do rely a lot upon the early Church fathers to support that early Christians also belived in the Real Presence. Then there were martyrs such as St Tarcisius, a third-century Roman convert, who died rather than give the Eucharistic bread into the hands of unbelievers. Doesn’t sound like the action of someone who belives it is merely bread and wine.

 

[deb1]

I am surprised that in your reading you didn 't come across John six.

When Jesus spoke in parables he explained the symbolism later to the disciples. In John six, he told them that to have eternal life, they must eat his body and drink his blood.

In Jewish culture, ingesting blood is taboo and meats need to be drained of blood before consuming them.

Of course his words were offensive to the Jewish people of that day. Many of his disciples left him. Jesus did not call them back, nor did he explain the parable’s symbolism. That in itself points to a literal meaning of his words.

During the last supper he again reiterated that we were to drink his blood and eat his flesh.

I have had some Protestants point out that Jesus uses the word remember me during the last supper as proof that communion was merely symbolic. My response has always been that if I am consuming Jesus’s flesh then I am certainly remembering him.

Although Catholics use sacred tradition, I am quickly discovering that it a biblical based Church. Much more then the Protestant churches that I attended(no offense meant to my Protestant brothers and sisters)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi Deb and Lily,

I already know what you have pointed out. My question was where did the CC get that the Priests were the ones who somehow changed the bread and wine into body and flesh. Im sure there is a name for this practice. Apparently the priest does or says something that makes the bread and wine change

Is this considered part of apostolic succession? Im trying to see in the Bible where Jesus tells His Apostles that when they do this you will be turning the bread and wine into my body and flesh.

Am I being clear? Im not sure Im explaining it well .

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi,

Where in the bible does it say that Priests can turn the bread and wine into the body and flesh of Christ? I just cant find it and if it is not in there is then considered a Sacred Tradition.

Disclaimer–Im not catholic–but I would like to know where the Catholics get this. Im also not looking for a disagreement on it just info.

Thanks

AFH

The Institution narratives are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke (Last Supper) and St. Paul in 1st Corinthians.

 

[deb1]

Hi Deb and Lily,

I already know what you have pointed out. My question was where did the CC get that the Priests were the ones who somehow changed the bread and wine into body and flesh. Im sure there is a name for this practice. Apparently the priest does or says something that makes the bread and wine change

Is this considered part of apostolic succession? Im trying to see in the Bible where Jesus tells His Apostles that when they do this you will be turning the bread and wine into my body and flesh.

Am I being clear? Im not sure Im explaining it well .

I understand you now.

.

 

[LilyM]

Oh, apologies for not getting it.

I believe ‘transubstantiation’ might be the word you’re looking for. The idea is that it is when the priest takes up the bread and wine, as Christ did, and repeats the words of Christ - ‘This is my body’ and ‘this is my blood’ - that the change occurs. Christ acts through the priest and they truly become his body and blood.

It comes from our belief that when Christ said to the apostles ‘do this in remembrance of me’ he meant do all of it - take the bread and wine, say the same words and to effect the change by means of those words.

After all, how else were the generations after Christ to eat his flesh and drink his blood unless it could be done this way?

It is a power passed on from the Apostles to their successors, our priests and bishops, by virtue of their ordination as priests, along with the powers to absolve sins, anoint the sick, marry people etc etc. So you could say it is part of Apostolic Succesion.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is it the priest that changes the bread and wine, or is it Christ that changes the bread and wine? Since the priest is acting “In Persona Christi” then that would imply to me that Christ is consecrating the hosts and wine through the priest.

St. Paul acknowledges that it is Christ’s Body and Blood that is in the Eucharist, but he doesn’t specifically say that he changed it. Maybe we have some Catechism experts that can make the distinction.

If I’m going in a different direction than AFH’s original intent, I’m sorry. But I think that’s what you’re asking, right?

 

[LilyM]

Sounds like that’s what AFH is asking.

To make it clear, it is indeed Christ acting through the priest, just as the absolution of sins is done by Christ acting through the priest. The priest is indeed acting in persona Christi at such times.

 

[kage_ar]

The Institution narratives are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke (Last Supper) and St. Paul in 1st Corinthians.

Those would be the places - Jesus said “do this”, so, the Priests do

Have you ever been to Mass?

 

[JoeyWarren]

The final proof text which corroabelates(sp?) with the scriptures given in the above comments is this:
**
1Co 10:16 **The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Is it the priest that changes the bread and wine, or is it Christ that changes the bread and wine? Since the priest is acting “In Persona Christi” then that would imply to me that Christ is consecrating the hosts and wine through the priest.

St. Paul acknowledges that it is Christ’s Body and Blood that is in the Eucharist, but he doesn’t specifically say that he changed it. Maybe we have some Catechism experts that can make the distinction.

If I’m going in a different direction than AFH’s original intent, I’m sorry. But I think that’s what you’re asking, right?

Yes

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Those would be the places - Jesus said “do this”, so, the Priests do

Have you ever been to Mass?

Yes and will be going again for my neighbors confirmation I think in January. Is there something I should focus on in order to learn?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Thank you all for helping me. I understand it better now. Of course if there is anything else out there please share.

 

[kage_ar]

Yes and will be going again for my neighbors confirmation I think in January. Is there something I should focus on in order to learn?

During the Consecration, see if you recognize the words from Scripture…

 

[ALLFORHIM]

During the Consecration, see if you recognize the words from Scripture…

Thanks I will. Just to be sure–the consecration is when the priest is holding up the wine and bread and saying something?

 

[kage_ar]

Thanks I will. Just to be sure–the consecration is when the priest is holding up the wine and bread and saying something?

That would be the elevation, it takes place after the consecration - if you follow along in the missalette for the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist - actually for the entire Mass - you will hear lots and lots of Scripture

 

[ALLFORHIM]

That would be the elevation, it takes place after the consecration - if you follow along in the missalette for the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist - actually for the entire Mass - you will hear lots and lots of Scripture

Thanks I will do. Hopefully I can hear. You know how crowded these things can get.