Where does scripture state that Tradition will be protected?

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I haven’t even read all your posts and I’m convinced…

that you do a lot of writing 😉

Thanks for defending the faith my kin!

You can’t answer the question without wresting with the Apostolic issue. This was my point many a post ago.

God Bless,
JB
I thought apologetics means never having to say you’re sorry! 😉

I think it could be said that I don’t write a lot, I just type fast… 🙂

Unfortunately, though, I know I’ve posted some overwhelming content, for which I should be a bit sorry–it’s just that it’s really cool stuff!

Anyway, the silence at this point is golden–perhaps some persuasion has happened–at least that the issue of AS is much more complex and interconnected than perhaps some non-Catholics (not to mention Catholics like me) might have realized…

DJim
 
It is moments such as this one where you find out what people are seeking the truth and what people are pusing agendas.

Thanks for the posts DJim.

Some of your arguments for apostolic succession were beautiful.

They don’t make a Catholic feel triumphal–they make a Catholic feel humble–the church we belong to really does go back all the way to the disicples and Jesus.

And ultimately we all mmust answer to Jesus’ authority.

Lord have Mercy on us and thanks for your Church!
 
Thanks, Jerry-Jet, for the kind words.

I had actually been planning on a very different approach to responding to this thread, and then these observations struck me, which are all rather new to me as well. They are humbling! And comforting, to know that Scripture so well attests to the practice of the Catholic faith 2000 years later…

Blessings,

DJim
 
They don’t make a Catholic feel triumphal–they make a Catholic feel humble–the church we belong to really does go back all the way to the disicples and Jesus.
Amen brother…

It feel so good to be home.
 
I know, I know–another post from me! Sorry–but I want to connect some dots here:

My point in all the above is to focus in upon the necessity of apostolic succession in Scripture, which is also necessary for the protection of Apostolic (Living) Tradition, the real focus of this thread.
So, laying on of hands protects the “living tradition”?

Was Tertulian commissioned with the laying on of hands?
 
So, laying on of hands protects the “living tradition”?

Was Tertulian commissioned with the laying on of hands?
I would presume he was ordained a priest with the laying on of hands.

The fact that he betrayed his ordination by embracing Montanism is sad, but it’s an example of how Apostolic authority did protect Living Tradition by making clear that his Montanist beliefs were not Apostolic…

DJim
 
I would presume he was ordained a priest with the laying on of hands.

The fact that he betrayed his ordination by embracing Montanism is sad, but it’s an example of how Apostolic authority did protect Living Tradition by making clear that his Montanist beliefs were not Apostolic…

DJim
So, did Tertulian, abandon “living tradition” or biblical beliefs?

Why did Laying on of hands not protect him?
 
In the discussion about sola scriptura, I made a point a number of times that I feel was never addressed, so I want to give the Catholics here a chance to address it. It seems to me that there is nowhere in scripture that it is even implied that the Holy Spirit will supernaturally protect an Oral Tradition from error. Why is this a problem? It’s a problem because if scripture doesn’t guarantee that Oral Tradition will be protected from error, then the only thing left to make the claim that Tradition is protected from error is, of course, Tradition itself. If the primary sources of God’s Word for Catholics are Scripture and Tradition, then Scripture must be used to prove that Tradition is always protected, otherwise you get stuck in a big circular loop of logic, with Tradition being the only thing that proves Tradition.

So, I challenge the Catholics here to prove that an infallible Tradition is promised in scripture. I contest that it isn’t. Verses like 2 Thess 2:15 aren’t promises, they are commands, a completely different matter. Paul isn’t promising that the Thessalonians will hold onto his oral teachings, he tells them to hold onto them. There is no guarantee that they will. Considering how bad we humans are at following orders, it is a bad idea (IMHO) to assume that they did in fact hold onto those oral teachings over the course of 2000 years.

So please, show me a single verse that implies that an Oral Tradition will develop that is protected by the Holy Spirit. If you can’t, then clearly the only thing supporting the notion of an infallible Tradition would be Tradition itself.
1 Cor 11:2- Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thess 2:15
So then, brethern**, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught**, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us

2 Thess 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
 
So, did Tertulian, abandon “living tradition” or biblical beliefs?

Why did Laying on of hands not protect him?
Tertullian abandoned the Christ-given authority of the Church.

Apostolic succession does not involve the gift of personal infallibility in teaching faith/morals (with the exception of Peter’s successor), but rather a collective infallibility for the good of the Church.

As such, laying on of hands is not a means of protection of the individual, but rather of the Church

DJim
 
Tertullian abandoned the Christ-given authority of the Church.

Apostolic succession does not involve the gift of personal infallibility in teaching faith/morals (with the exception of Peter’s successor), but rather a collective infallibility for the good of the Church.

As such, laying on of hands is not a means of protection of the individual, but rather of the Church

DJim
What, then is the benefit for the individual? Are not “individuals” the recipient of laying on of hands? How does the church benefit when it is individuals who receieve?
 
What, then is the benefit for the individual? Are not “individuals” the recipient of laying on of hands? How does the church benefit when it is individuals who receieve?
The Catholic view is actually that both Sacraments of “vocation”–Matrimony and Holy Orders"–exist first and foremost for the good of the Church, and then secondarily for the good of the individual…

Speicifically in Holy Orders, it is the individual who is called by the Church to that ministry, for the good of the Church.

So, while the individual “benefits” from a life of holiness–there are no guarantees that a man called to Orders will remain faithful to that call–just a guarantee that the Church won’t teach universal error in faith/morals through the collective teaching of the Bishops, or the “ex cathedra” teaching of the Pope…

DJim
 
The Catholic view is actually that both Sacraments of “vocation”–Matrimony and Holy Orders"–exist first and foremost for the good of the Church, and then secondarily for the good of the individual…

Speicifically in Holy Orders, it is the individual who is called by the Church to that ministry, for the good of the Church.

So, while the individual “benefits” from a life of holiness–there are no guarantees that a man called to Orders will remain faithful to that call–just a guarantee that the Church won’t teach universal error in faith/morals through the collective teaching of the Bishops, or the “ex cathedra” teaching of the Pope…

DJim
So, all things being equal, does laying on of hands increase faithfulness in and of itself?
 
So, all things being equal, does laying on of hands increase faithfulness in and of itself?
Well, in the individual, one certainly hopes, since the grace of Orders is there for the receiving through the Sacramental laying on of hands. But that grace must be acted upon by the individual for it to have an “individual” effect.

Collectively, in the Church there is no question that, through Orders, faithfulness of the Church is increased…

DJim
 
Collectively, in the Church there is no question that, through Orders, faithfulness of the Church is increased…

DJim
Approximately 2,000 years later and we see that the proof in in the pudding.

The exceptions are relatively few, considering the the enormous size of the Catholic Church throughout the ages.
 
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