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adrift
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There is only One God who has revealed to us that He is Father Son and Holy Spirit. Please read the thread.
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Tomdstone
Guest
But according to you God is three different persons, not one person? And the persons are not the same, since Jesus has said that the Father is greater than I. And we have God the Son, praying to God the Father that this cup may pass away. Also, in the Old Testament, did the Jews ever have any idea that God was three persons and not one person? Is there something special about the number three? When a Jew prays Hear o Israel, the Lord thy God is One, does that allow God to be three persons? I think that the Jews believe that God must be one person, as that was what they understood in the Old Testament and in their other holy books such as the Talmud?There is only One God who has revealed to us that He is Father Son and Holy Spirit. Please read the thread.
H
hazcompat
Guest
You know the words, Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One; would that you knew
them aright! As you interpret them, I seek in vain for their sense. It is said in the Psalms,
God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Impress upon the reader’s mind the distinction
between the Anointer and the Anointed; discriminate between the Thee and the Thy: make
it clear to Whom and of Whom the words are spoken. For this definite confession is the
conclusion of the preceding passage, which runs thus; Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity. And then he continues, Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Thus the God of the eternal kingdom, in reward for His love of righteousness and hatred of iniquity,is anointed by His God. Surely some broad difference is drawn, some gap too wide for our mental span, between these names? No; the distinction of Persons is indicated by Thee and Thy, but nothing suggests a difference of nature. Thy points to the Author, Thee to Him Who is the Author’s offspring. For He is God from God, as these same words of the prophet declare, God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. And His own words bear witness that there is no God anterior to God the Un-originate; Be ye My witnesses, and I am witness,saith the Lord God, and My Servant Whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe and understand that I am, and before Me there is no other God, nor shall be after Me. Thus the majesty of Him that has no beginning is declared, and the glory of Him that is from the Unoriginate is safeguarded; for God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. That word Thy declares His birth, yet does not contradict His nature. Thy God means that the Son was born from Him to share the Godhead. But the fact that the Father is God is no obstacle to the Son’s being God also, for God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Mention is made both of Father and of Son; the one title of God conveys the assurance that in character and majesty They are One.
Saint Hilary De Trinitate
Peace
them aright! As you interpret them, I seek in vain for their sense. It is said in the Psalms,
God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Impress upon the reader’s mind the distinction
between the Anointer and the Anointed; discriminate between the Thee and the Thy: make
it clear to Whom and of Whom the words are spoken. For this definite confession is the
conclusion of the preceding passage, which runs thus; Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity. And then he continues, Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Thus the God of the eternal kingdom, in reward for His love of righteousness and hatred of iniquity,is anointed by His God. Surely some broad difference is drawn, some gap too wide for our mental span, between these names? No; the distinction of Persons is indicated by Thee and Thy, but nothing suggests a difference of nature. Thy points to the Author, Thee to Him Who is the Author’s offspring. For He is God from God, as these same words of the prophet declare, God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. And His own words bear witness that there is no God anterior to God the Un-originate; Be ye My witnesses, and I am witness,saith the Lord God, and My Servant Whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe and understand that I am, and before Me there is no other God, nor shall be after Me. Thus the majesty of Him that has no beginning is declared, and the glory of Him that is from the Unoriginate is safeguarded; for God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. That word Thy declares His birth, yet does not contradict His nature. Thy God means that the Son was born from Him to share the Godhead. But the fact that the Father is God is no obstacle to the Son’s being God also, for God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee. Mention is made both of Father and of Son; the one title of God conveys the assurance that in character and majesty They are One.
Saint Hilary De Trinitate
Peace
No, we say no such thing. There is one God. One substance, one essence. But in that one God, there are three Persons. It isn’t fully understandable, because we’re trying to understand God, who is the Incomprehensible. But he did reveal sufficiently of himself to know that yes, there is one God, but in that one God, there are three Persons. The Scriptures do not say this explicitly, but a reasoned reading of the Scriptures in its entirety. can draw us only to that conclusion. We have already shown from the Scriptures on this thread alone:If God is One, would He not be one person? By saying that God is three different persons, are you not denying that God is one God and one person?
There is a prayer: Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One.
AFAIK, in the Old Testament, there is no prayer which says the Lord thy God is three separate persons.
- That God is one. For this thread, this is a given.
- That Jesus is also God (John 1:1 and others).
- Yet Jesus prayed to the Father. That means he is a separate person.
- That Jesus is also true man with a human will. Hence, he can say, “not my will but yours”
- And human knowledge (hence, he can also say that there are things he doesn’t know, and that the Father is greater than he is).
As for the Jews, no they don’t believe the Trinity, but there have already been small hints in the Old Testament that there is a certain plurality in God. They are not proofs, but they were foreshadowings of God’s triune nature.
L
luvthelamb
Guest
Excellent!You have to understand the Scriptures as a Jew would have understood it.
And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O men of little faith?” Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. And the men marveled, saying, "What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?" (Matthew 8:26-27)The wind and the sea obey only God. This passage would have brought to mind the Psalms.
For he commanded, and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
(Psalm 107:27)
Whatever the LORD pleases he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.
He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth,
who makes lightnings for the rain
and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
(Psalm 135:6-7)This is how the Jewish writers wrote, bringing to mind the Old Testament and showing their audience that Jesus is the fulfillment of what was written about. This is how a Jew who read the written Gospel would have heard the Scriptures.
-Tim-
Again, think like a Jew…
I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. (Matthew 12:6)
The only thing greater than the temple was God who dwelt in the temple.
For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath. (Matthew 12:8)The only one who is lord of the sabbath is God who created the sabbath.
-Tim-
John says it outright.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John 1:1,14)God became flesh, lived among the disciples, and they saw him with their eyes.
-Tim-
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Tomdstone
Guest
But Moses parted the Red Sea and he was not divine.Dear Tom,
I am going to add a special section on my web page about how the first three Gospels proclaimed the Divinity of Jesus, but in a different way.
**
**
**Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him. **
Mark 4:37-41
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** **“And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. 38 But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care if we perish?” 39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?” 41 And they were filled with awe, and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?” Cf. Matthew 8:24-27, Luke 8:24-25
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Is God the Son omniscient?
- And human knowledge (hence, he can also say that there are things he doesn’t know, and that the Father is greater than he is).
A
adrift
Guest
Moses parted the Red Sea?But Moses parted the Red Sea and he was not divine.
That is not how I read the scripture. It was God who parted the Red Sea.21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the** LORD **swept the sea with a strong east wind throughout the night and so turned it into dry land. When the water was thus divided,
A
adrift
Guest
Jesus has two natures as God He is omniscient, His human nature is not.Is God the Son omniscient?
J
JohnR77
Guest
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TimothyH
Guest
Yes. This ^^^
The copyright has expired and it is available for free in PDF format all over the internet.
-Tim-
D
daler
Guest
Barryl,I’m sorry but Jesus and God are two seperate entities Jesus was with God when he created the world That is why He always referred to Him as Father. He never came from Heaven to do His will, but His Fathers. He was the word of God as he had been with Him for eons and knows Him better than anyone. That is why it was a sacrifice to God. Symbolizing His greatest love for mankind by sacrificing His (and here it comes) ONLY begotten Son for man’s salvation.
. I always see a real difference between God and Jesus because of His own words:
. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
. so according to Jesus, as far as I can intelligibly discern, He is the bearer of God’s Message, not His own Message, and there is a necessary distinction.
. “My Father is greater than I” would be another example
A
adrift
Guest
:banghead: If you had read the thread, you would have discerned that Jesus is both God, second person of the Trinity, and fully human. According to Jesus, He is I Am. Which is what God gave to Moses as His name. As He told His apostles, The Father and He are one. :banghead:Barryl,
. I always see a real difference between God and Jesus because of His own words:
. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
. so according to Jesus, as far as I can intelligibly discern, He is the bearer of God’s Message, not His own Message, and there is a necessary distinction.
. “My Father is greater than I” would be another example
S
Servant19
Guest
Hi adrift,:banghead: If you had read the thread, you would have discerned that Jesus is both God, second person of the Trinity, and fully human. According to Jesus, He is I Am. Which is what God gave to Moses as His name. As He told His apostles, The Father and He are one. :banghead:
Do you therefore endorse patripassionism?
M
Miguelmdza
Guest
I wouldn’t count on those Bibles that have that translation. Your are probably looking at JW’s Bible, which, as far as I know, is being revised and rewritten. If the translation was perfect, it would not need to be rewritten or revised.Some Bibles translate that as the word was a god. Do you have the original text for that?
God also states throughout the entire Bible that He is the one true God and that there is no other gods before Him. How then can the Word be a god?
All other Bibles state, “And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
A
adrift
Guest
NoHi adrift,
Do you therefore endorse patripassionism?
S
Servant19
Guest
So why did you state that the Father and He are one?
A
adrift
Guest
I was quoting Jesus.So why did you state that the Father and He are one?
Patripassionism is A form of Monarchianism, which postulated that there is only one person in the Trinity, so that logically God the Father became man, a much as the Son, and suffered on the Cross for mankind.
Monarchianism
A heretical doctrine begun in the second century, that so stressed God’s unity of nature as to deny the Trinity of Persons. Three forms are distinguishable: crude monarchianism denied any distinction of persons in the Godhead and claimed that the Father became incarnate. The modalist type admitted only a distinction of functions in God, who as Father created the world, as Son redeemed, and as the Holy Spirit sanctified the world. The subordinationist variety recognized a real distinction of persons but subordinated one to the other.
Please read the thread.
J
JohnR77
Guest
Thanks Tim and LuvTheLamb.You have to understand the Scriptures as a Jew would have understood it.***…
… even winds and sea obey him***?" (Matthew 8:26-27)The wind and the sea obey only God. This passage would have brought to mind the Psalms.For he commanded, and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
(Psalm 107:27)
When I finish my page On Jesus’ Divinity in the Bible i will include the whole text.
Powerful Quote.
Psalm 107:24-31
“They saw the works of the LORD,
the wonders of God in the deep.
25 He spoke and roused a storm wind;
it tossed the waves on high.
26 They rose up to the heavens, sank to the depths;
their hearts trembled at the danger.
27 They reeled, staggered like drunkards;
their skill was of no avail.
28 In their distress they cried to the LORD,
who brought them out of their peril,
29 Hushed the storm to a murmur;
the waves of the sea were stilled.
30 They rejoiced that the sea grew calm,
that God brought them to the harbor they longed for.
31 Let them thank the LORD for such kindness” NAB
John
D
daler
Guest
It seems to me that humans have a long history of trying to make God in their own image.I was quoting Jesus.
Patripassionism is A form of Monarchianism, which postulated that there is only one person in the Trinity, so that logically God the Father became man, a much as the Son, and suffered on the Cross for mankind.
Monarchianism
A heretical doctrine begun in the second century, that so stressed God’s unity of nature as to deny the Trinity of Persons. Three forms are distinguishable: crude monarchianism denied any distinction of persons in the Godhead and claimed that the Father became incarnate. The modalist type admitted only a distinction of functions in God, who as Father created the world, as Son redeemed, and as the Holy Spirit sanctified the world. The subordinationist variety recognized a real distinction of persons but subordinated one to the other.
Please read the thread.
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