M
mark_a
Guest
No other prophet, archangel, or man has given us his body and blood to eat and drink.
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The transliterated text for that is “kai theos en ho logos.”I have a Greek Diaglott a real favourite of JWs. And no it does not say the word was a god because there can only be one God. Any other god is a false god, therefore if the word was a god, it would be a false god.
Incidentally do you have the original text for that?
The clause in Greek has the word order reversed from the standard subject-predicate order; in this case, the predicate comes first. In Greek, the word order is not as important as it is in English but even in English, word reversal has its value too.
Literally, this reads, “and-God-was-the-Word.”
The Greek, however, has the definite article ho in front of logos, which indicates logos as the subject of the sentence. The reversal of the order emphasizes the force of the predicate. An analogous sentence in English can give the same effect.
“The grass is green” vs.
“Green is the grass.”
The two sentences say exactly the same thing, but in the latter sentence, the greeness is emphasized. This is pretty much how it is in the Greek as well. That clause is saying, “the Word was GOD”, emphasis on GOD. There is no grammatical justification for the insertion of the English indefinite article “a” for this text, as it is not supported by either the text (Greek has no indefinite article) or the context.
A
adrift
Guest
Jesus isn’t equal to God for He is fully God and fully human. It is His human nature that does not know everything.But according to Matthew 24:36 - "“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
If Jesus the Son were equal to God, would He not know both the day and the hour?
A
adrift
Guest
What others think doesn’t change the truth.It is true that most Christians believe that Jesus-] was /-]IS God. However, a Lutheran pastor I spoke with said that there are Lutherans who do not take think that He was equal to God. And of course, there are the other religions which hold Jesus to be a great prophet, and who perhaps existed before his earthly birth in some way or another, but is not equal to God. For example, the JW, the Muslims, the Unitarians.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
However, I often hear people exclaim things like OMG. In fact there is even a webpage called OMG and it does not mean that when you say OMG to someone, you mean that the person is a god.Absolutely correct. It was an exclamation of Thomas, one of awe, “my Lord my God”. It was an exclamation of faith. I named my first born son Thomas for this exact reason. I had recently transitioned from believing that Jesus was a God-like man into believing like Thomas that Jesus is from the beginning God the Son. As also Philippians 2 states.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
they cite the following verses from Scripture:What others think doesn’t change the truth.
The Father is greater than I.
No one knows the day, not even the Son, but only the Father.
My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?
Father, if you will, take this cup from me.
D
Darryl_B
Guest
Except that in those days the Jew had a significantly greater honour and respect for God than some would give them credit for. Especially with the likelihood of stoning.However, I often hear people exclaim things like OMG. In fact there is even a webpage called OMG and it does not mean that when you say OMG to someone, you mean that the person is a god.
A
adrift
Guest
Again Jesus is both fully God and fully man. It is His human nature that does not know everything.they cite the following verses from Scripture:
The Father is greater than I.
No one knows the day, not even the Son, but only the Father.
My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?
Father, if you will, take this cup from me.
If they cite this verse, than they are citing it out of ignorance. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, a messianic psalm that vividly describes the agony the suffering servant would endure. Read more hereMy God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?
A
adrift
Guest
You do realize that people who do so are taking God’s name in vain. Are you suggesting that this is what Thomas was doing? Thomas was not using a profanity but stating a fact “My Lord and my God”However, I often hear people exclaim things like OMG. In fact there is even a webpage called OMG and it does not mean that when you say OMG to someone, you mean that the person is a god.
J
JohnR77
Guest
Here is an Interlinear showing the Greek. Scroll down.Which is not an accurate translation of the Greek. Ego eimi translates as “I am”, nothing else.
Put the cursor on the English word to highlight the Greek.
studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi?search_form_type=interlinear&q1=John+8%3A58+++&ot=bhs&nt=wh&s=0&t3=str_nas&ns=0
See chart for transliteration
libraries.psu.edu/psul/cataloging/rare/docs/greek.html
Since many, myself included, are not experts in Greek there is a much easier way to decipher what Jesus was really saying. We look to the experts in first century Judaism and Aramaic, the Pharisees. It was frighteningly clear to them that Jesus was claiming to be God.
John 10:30, 33
“ ‘I and the Father are one.’ … The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.’ ”
Jesus knew the hearts and minds of the Scribes and Pharisees. And they clearly understood Jesus to be claiming to be God. As a good teacher He would have had to correct that if it was a misunderstanding on their part. However, Jesus does not “correct” their understanding. Therefore, their understanding must be correct, He is God. And Jesus goes on to restate that in various ways.
John 5:18
“**This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” **RSV
If we accept that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, then we know that all that it teaches is true. And John the Evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit, clearly states that Jesus was “making himself equal with God.” So, clearly Jesus was claiming equality with God. There are only three possibilities. Jesus is either a lunatic, a liar, or He is telling the truth and He is truly God and equal to the Father. Jesus could not be a lunatic because no lunatic speaks or teaches with the wisdom that he espouses. No good man would falsely claim to be God. Yet, Jesus was clearly a good man as can be deduced by His teachings and His many miracles and most importantly His resurrection from the dead. Therefore, He is good and He is God.
John 5:23
” … so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”
They only way Jesus would deserve to be honored just as the Father is honored, is for Him to be God.
John
.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
I mentioned these passages to a Lutheran pastor, and his comment was that all of these passages come from the gospel of John, which differs fundamentally from the other three gospels. So he was not convinced that they proved that Jesus was God. He remarked on the other passages I had mentioned:Here is an Interlinear showing the Greek. Scroll down.
Put the cursor on the English word to highlight the Greek.
studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi?search_form_type=interlinear&q1=John+8%3A58+++&ot=bhs&nt=wh&s=0&t3=str_nas&ns=0
See chart for transliteration
libraries.psu.edu/psul/cataloging/rare/docs/greek.html
Since many, myself included, are not experts in Greek there is a much easier way to decipher what Jesus was really saying. We look to the experts in first century Judaism and Aramaic, the Pharisees. It was frighteningly clear to them that Jesus was claiming to be God.
John 10:30, 33
“ ‘I and the Father are one.’ … The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.’ ”
Jesus knew the hearts and minds of the Scribes and Pharisees. And they clearly understood Jesus to be claiming to be God. As a good teacher He would have had to correct that if it was a misunderstanding on their part. However, Jesus does not “correct” their understanding. Therefore, their understanding must be correct, He is God. And Jesus goes on to restate that in various ways.
John 5:18
“**This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” **RSV
If we accept that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, then we know that all that it teaches is true. And John the Evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit, clearly states that Jesus was “making himself equal with God.” So, clearly Jesus was claiming equality with God. There are only three possibilities. Jesus is either a lunatic, a liar, or He is telling the truth and He is truly God and equal to the Father. Jesus could not be a lunatic because no lunatic speaks or teaches with the wisdom that he espouses. No good man would falsely claim to be God. Yet, Jesus was clearly a good man as can be deduced by His teachings and His many miracles and most importantly His resurrection from the dead. Therefore, He is good and He is God.
**John 5:23
**” … so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”
They only way Jesus would deserve to be honored just as the Father is honored, is for Him to be God.
John
.
My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me.
the Father is greater than I
No one knows the day or the hour, not even the Son, but only the Father.
According to this pastor, these passages show that Jesus is somewhat less than Almighty God, but he did not object if anyone in his congregation believed in the Roman Catholic version of the Trinity.
D
Darryl_B
Guest
It is not just the Roman Catholic version. It is the version of all denominations excepting the minor mostly obscure fringes. I would have thought it was the official position of the Lutheran church also.I mentioned these passages to a Lutheran pastor, and his comment was that all of these passages come from the gospel of John, which differs fundamentally from the other three gospels. So he was not convinced that they proved that Jesus was God. He remarked on the other passages I had mentioned:
My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me.
the Father is greater than I
No one knows the day or the hour, not even the Son, but only the Father.
According to this pastor, these passages show that Jesus is somewhat less than Almighty God, but he did not object if anyone in his congregation believed in the Roman Catholic version of the Trinity.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
it might be the official teaching, but perhaps this Lutheran pastor was more liberal than most. Anyway, he said that the gospel of John is significantly different in flavor from the other three gospels.It is not just the Roman Catholic version. It is the version of all denominations excepting the minor mostly obscure fringes. I would have thought it was the official position of the Lutheran church also.
D
Darryl_B
Guest
So your Lutheran pastor friend probably meant to say that he did not object if anyone in his congregation believed in the Lutheran version of the Trinity.it might be the official teaching, but perhaps this Lutheran pastor was more liberal than most. Anyway, he said that the gospel of John is significantly different in flavor from the other three gospels.
The gospel of John is significantly different in flavor from the other three gospels, but that of itself does not invalidate anything.
The Trinity is about the only immutable doctrine that binds Christians.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
The reason it is different is that John was writing his Gospel in defense of the Divinity of Jesus in response to the errors of Cerinthus, who denied the Divinity of Jesus in the Apostolic age. This error/heresy has never died out.it might be the official teaching, but perhaps this Lutheran pastor was more liberal than most. Anyway, he said that the gospel of John is significantly different in flavor from the other three gospels.
M
mark_a
Guest
Jesus was quoting psalm 22. Read it.My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Why would He quote this passage, unless he thought that God had forsaken Him?Jesus was quoting psalm 22. Read it.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Does any of this appear in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, or Luke? Why not?Here is an Interlinear showing the Greek. Scroll down.
Put the cursor on the English word to highlight the Greek.
studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi?search_form_type=interlinear&q1=John+8%3A58+++&ot=bhs&nt=wh&s=0&t3=str_nas&ns=0
See chart for transliteration
libraries.psu.edu/psul/cataloging/rare/docs/greek.html
Since many, myself included, are not experts in Greek there is a much easier way to decipher what Jesus was really saying. We look to the experts in first century Judaism and Aramaic, the Pharisees. It was frighteningly clear to them that Jesus was claiming to be God.
John 10:30, 33
“ ‘I and the Father are one.’ … The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.’ ”
Jesus knew the hearts and minds of the Scribes and Pharisees. And they clearly understood Jesus to be claiming to be God. As a good teacher He would have had to correct that if it was a misunderstanding on their part. However, Jesus does not “correct” their understanding. Therefore, their understanding must be correct, He is God. And Jesus goes on to restate that in various ways.
John 5:18
“**This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” **RSV
If we accept that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, then we know that all that it teaches is true. And John the Evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit, clearly states that Jesus was “making himself equal with God.” So, clearly Jesus was claiming equality with God. There are only three possibilities. Jesus is either a lunatic, a liar, or He is telling the truth and He is truly God and equal to the Father. Jesus could not be a lunatic because no lunatic speaks or teaches with the wisdom that he espouses. No good man would falsely claim to be God. Yet, Jesus was clearly a good man as can be deduced by His teachings and His many miracles and most importantly His resurrection from the dead. Therefore, He is good and He is God.
**John 5:23
**” … so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”
They only way Jesus would deserve to be honored just as the Father is honored, is for Him to be God.
John
.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Did God reveal Himself to be a Trinity in the Old Testament? Why did God not tell the Jews that He was a Trinity?
M
mark_a
Guest
In my opinion? For the same reason his words to John were short and to the point. He was nearly dead and having extreme difficulty breathing.Why would He quote this passage, unless he thought that God had forsaken Him?
Are you of the “God turned his back on Jesus” persuasion?
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