Where does the Bible say that Jesus is God? (Split)

[Tomdstone]

In my opinion? For the same reason his words to John were short and to the point. He was nearly dead and having extreme difficulty breathing.

Are you of the “God turned his back on Jesus” persuasion?

No. I am only saying that for Jesus to cry out:
My God, My God. Why hast thou forsaken me.
is not something that you would expect for God to cry out?
Or would you expect God to ask this question?
Being God, why would Jesus cry out such a thing? It seems like he is asking God why He is forsaking Jesus. But how does that make sense if Jesus is God?

 

[mark_a]

No. I am only saying that for Jesus to cry out:
My God, My God. Why hast thou forsaken me.
is not something that you would expect for God to cry out?
Or would you expect God to ask this question?
Being God, why would Jesus cry out such a thing? It seems like he is asking God why He is forsaking Jesus. But how does that make sense if Jesus is God?

The Catholic answer is that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. The hypo-static union, too mysterious for humans to grasp. Jesus felt everything at least as intensely as you or I would.

In my opinion, Jesus being near death, referred to Psalm 22 by the opening line. Kind of like how Jehovah’s Witnesses know to ask me to pray the “Our Father” with them, but ask my Protestant neighbors to pray the “Lords Prayer”.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Catholic answer is that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. The hypo-static union, too mysterious for humans to grasp. Jesus felt everything at least as intensely as you or I would.

In my opinion, Jesus being near death, referred to Psalm 22 by the opening line. Kind of like how Jehovah’s Witnesses know to ask me to pray the “Our Father” with them, but ask my Protestant neighbors to pray the “Lords Prayer”.

The Our Father prayer or the Lord’s prayer is full of hope - thy kingdom come-. But the plea: My God, My God: Why hast Thou foresaken me - does not sound too hopeful to me. Is this something that God would have said?

 

[mark_a]

The Our Father prayer or the Lord’s prayer is full of hope - thy kingdom come-. But the plea: My God, My God: Why hast Thou foresaken me - does not sound too hopeful to me. Is this something that God would have said?

If you read Psalm 22, it is a psalm full of hope!

 

[Tomdstone]

If you read Psalm 22, it is a psalm full of hope!

Here are the first 10 verses:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;

and by night, but find no rest.

3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.

4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.

5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;

8 “Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver—let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”

9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe from my mother’s breast.

10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.

Take for example, the second verse:
O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer
How do you explain that this is something that God would have said?
Also in verse 6, why would God say that He is a worm?

 

[adrift]

No. I am only saying that for Jesus to cry out:
My God, My God. Why hast thou forsaken me.
is not something that you would expect for God to cry out?
Or would you expect God to ask this question?
Being God, why would Jesus cry out such a thing? It seems like he is asking God why He is forsaking Jesus. But how does that make sense if Jesus is God?

I believe you ask questions you do not wish an answer to. You didn’t bother to read the link I provided but here is what it said.

If someone were to say, “I pledge allegiance to the flag” or “Our Father who art in heaven,” most people could either finish the quotation or prayer or at least understand the ideas being expressed. That is because certain quotations in our culture, whether secular or religious, are known and even memorized because of their importance.

This was true of the psalms in Jesus time. He needed only to say the first line, and most Jews would have known the rest, or at least the message.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, a messianic psalm that vividly describes the agony the suffering servant would endure. God the Father did not abandon his Son in his Son’s suffering but allowed him in his humanity to experience the sense of divine abandonment that humans often feel during times of need, and especially when in sin. Just as we often feel that God has abandoned us when we are suffering (even though this isn’t the case), so the Son of God in his humanity experienced that.aspect of human suffering as well. He died for our sins, and the weight of those sins—and thus the feeling of abandonment—must have been exceedingly heavy at that point.

By quoting this psalm, Jesus shows that he is the fulfillment of that prophecy and that he will be vindicated, which is evident in the psalm’s triumphant ending.

 

[Darryl_B]

I believe you ask questions you do not wish an answer to. You didn’t bother to read the link I provided but here is what it said.

I know what you mean. Sometimes I find the actual debate is greater than the subject.

 

[Tomdstone]

I believe you ask questions you do not wish an answer to.

This belief of yours is in error.
The passage you quoted said that God did not abandon His Son, but the passage that Jesus quoted seems to indicate otherwise. It says that Jesus experienced the sense of divine abandonment. But if Jesus were the unchangeable and immutable God, He would know already about this. Unless, you are now saying that at one time Jesus did not know about the sense of divine abandonment, and that at a later time He did know about divine abandonment. But if Jesus is God, He is all-knowing and He would know already everything about the sense of divine abandonment. God is all-knowing and unchangeable.

 

[porthos11]

Here are the first 10 verses:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;

and by night, but find no rest.

3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.

4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.

5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;

8 “Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver—let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”

9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe from my mother’s breast.

10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.

Take for example, the second verse:
O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer
How do you explain that this is something that God would have said?
Also in verse 6, why would God say that He is a worm?

Why just the first ten verses? You must read the whole Psalm, especially its conclusion.

But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued[c] me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it. (ESV)

When Jesus quoted the first line of Psalm 22, his listeners, who were Jews knew what he was referring to. Psalm 22 tells of a man who felt abandoned by God and friends but if you read through to the end, you see that God pulls through for him. Jesus is not crying out in despair; he is applying this Psalm to himself. Bearing the sins of all mankind, he can easily feel abandoned by God, which is what sin does; it separates us from God. Not his own sins of course but ours; he became sin for us. But beyond this feeling of abandonment, Psalm 22 ends with a note of victory.

So no, this cry from the cross does not disprove Jesus’ divinity at all. If anything, it only proves his humanity. True God, true Man.

 

[Tomdstone]

Bearing the sins of all mankind, he can easily feel abandoned by God, which is what sin does; it separates us from God.

This is what is difficult to understand. If Jesus is God, how could He feel abandoned by God?

 

[Tomdstone]

There is another question that I had on this.
God is unchangeable and immutable. He cannot and does not change according to Catholic theology and He is all-knowing.
But in the Old Testament, God was known to the Jews as One God. Then, about 2000 years ago, according to RC theology, there occurred the Incarnation, where God became man. So 3000 years ago, God did not have a human form, but 2000 years ago He did. Does that not signify a change in God?
Also, in his human form God the Son did not know the day or hour, even though God the Son was God and all-knowing? this is what is difficult to understand.

 

[Darryl_B]

This is something I said earlier.

Jesus washed the feet of the disciples. Does that mean he wasn’t a man? Humility does not change the fact that Jesus was in the beginning equal with God, but let that go and took the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. He humbled himself became obedient unto death even death on a cross. Sorry I stand in awe of that.

You have abandoned so many lines of debate and have only really one thing that “bothers” you. The Holy Spirit doesn’t bother you, but you have not claimed God is a Binity, neither denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit, why is that? You have cornered into the humanity of Jesus Christ and want to claim that humanity is the divinity.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Holy Spirit doesn’t bother you, but you have not claimed God is a Binity, neither denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit, why is that? .

Because that would be off topic. Perhaps that could be the subject of another thread. I would be breaking the rules if I were to go off topic here.

 

[Darryl_B]

Because that would be off topic. Perhaps that could be the subject of another thread. I would be breaking the rules if I were to go off topic here.

It is something that could easily be an inclusion of evidence without being off-topic. In fact it is very pertinent to the subject, since Jesus said he would send another the same as himself, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tomdstone]

It is something that could easily be an inclusion of evidence without being off-topic. In fact it is very pertinent to the subject, since Jesus said he would send another the same as himself, the Holy Spirit.

I don’t see it that way. I would rather follow the rules and stay on the original topic.

 

[Darryl_B]

I don’t see it that way. I would rather follow the rules and stay on the original topic.

Okay. Jesus said he would send another the same as himself, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tomdstone]

Okay. Jesus said he would send another the same as himself, the Holy Spirit.

That is perhaps the best argument I have seen so far for the divinity of Jesus. That He will send the Holy Spirit. I kind of see your point now that it does depend on whether we see the Holy Spirit as God.
However, there are still some questions in my mind about how an unchangeable God can first be not Incarnated, and then later on be Incarnated. this seems like a change. How an all knowing God such as Jesus would not know the day or the hour. Why did God tell the Jews He was one, and not a Trinity of three persons?

 

[hazcompat]

Saint Hilary De Trinitate
Book IV
15. Their starting-point is this; We confess, they say, One only God, because Moses says, Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One. But is this a truth which anyone has ever dared to doubt? Or was any believer ever known to confess otherwise than that there is One God from Whom are all things, One Majesty which has no birth, and that He is that unoriginated Power? Yet this fact of the Unity of God offers no chance for denying the Divinity of His Son. For Moses, or rather God through Moses, laid it down as His first commandment to that people, devoted both in Egypt and in the Desert to idols and the worship of imaginary gods, that they must believe in One God. There was truth and reason in the commandment, for God, from Whom are all things, is One. But let us see whether this Moses have not confessed that He, through Whom are all things, is also God. God is not robbed, He is still God, if His Son share the Godhead. For the case is that of God from God, of One from One, of God Who is One because God is from Him. And conversely the Son is not less God because God the Father is One, for He is the Only-begotten Son of God; not eternally unborn, so as to deprive the Father of His Oneness, nor yet different from God, for He is born from Him.
We must not doubt that He is God by virtue of that birth from God which proves to us who believe that God is One; yet let us see whether Moses, who announced to Israel, The Lord thy God is One, has also proclaimed the Godhead of the Son. To make good our confession of the Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ we must employ the evidence of that same witness on whom the heretics rely for the confession of One Only God, which they imagine to involve the denial of the Godhead of the Son.
16. Since, therefore, the words of the Apostle, One God the Father, from Whom are all things, and one Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom are all things, form an accurate and complete confession concerning God, let us see what Moses has to say of the beginning of the world. His words are, And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, and let it divide the water from the water. And it was so, and God made the firmament and God divided the water through the midst. Here, then, you have the God from Whom, and the God through Whom. If you deny it, you must tell us through whom it was that God’s work in creation was done, or else point for your explanation to an obedience in things yet uncreated, which, when God said Let there be a firmament, impelled the firmament to establish itself. Such suggestions are inconsistent with the clear sense of Scripture. For all things, as the Prophet says, were made out of nothing; it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent. Through whom? Hear the Evangelist: All things were made through Him. If you ask Who this is, the same Evangelist will tell you: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him. If you are minded to combat the view that it was the Father Who said, Let there be a firmament, the prophet will answer you: He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created. The recorded words, Let there be a firmament, reveal to us that the Father spoke. But in the words which follow, And it was so, in the statement that God did this thing, we must recognise the Person of the Agent. He spake, and they were made; the Scripture does not say that He willed it, and did it. He commanded, and they were created; you observe that it does not say they came into existence, because it was His pleasure. In that case there would be no office for a Mediator between God and the world which was awaiting its creation. God, from Whom are all things, gives the order for creation which God, through Whom are all things, executes. Under one and the same Name we confess Him Who gave and Him Who fulfilled the command. If you dare to deny that God made is spoken of the Son, how do you explain All things were made through Him? Or the Apostle’s words, One Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom are all things? Or, He spake, and they were made? If these inspired words succeed inconvincing your stubborn mind, you will cease to regard that text, Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One, as a refusal of Divinity to the Son of God, since at the very foundation of the world He Who spoke it proclaimed that His Son also is God. But let us see what increase of profit we may draw from this distinction of God Who commands and God Who executes. For though it is repugnant even to our natural reason to suppose that in the words, He commanded, and they were made, one single and isolated Person is intended, yet, for the avoidance of all doubts, we must expound the events which followed upon the creation of the world.

 

[hazcompat]

Saint Hilary De Trinitate Book IV

1. When the world was complete and its inhabitant was to be created, the words spoken concerning him were, Let Us make man after Our image and likeness. I ask you, Do you suppose that God spoke those words to Himself? Is it not obvious that He was addressing not Himself, but Another? If you reply that He was alone, then out of His own mouth He confutes you, for He says, Let Us make man after Our image and likeness. God has spoken to us through the Lawgiver in the way which is intelligible to us; that is, He makes us acquainted with His action by means of language, the faculty with which He has been pleased to endow us. There is, indeed, an indication of the Son of God, through Whom all things were made, in the words, And God said, Let there be a firmament, and in, And God made the firmament, which follows: but lest we should think these words of God were wasted and meaningless, supposing that He issued to Himself the command of creation, and Himself obeyed it,—for what notion could be further from the thought of a solitary God than that of giving a verbal order to Himself, when nothing was necessary except an exertion of His will?—He determined to give us a more perfect assurance that these words refer to Another beside Himself. When He said, Let Us make man after Our image and likeness, His indication of a Partner demolishes the theory of His isolation. For an isolated being cannot be partner to himself; and again, the words, Let Us make, are inconsistent with solitude, while Our cannot be used except to a companion. Both words, Us and Our are inconsistent with the notion of a solitary God speaking to Himself, and equally inconsistent with that of the address being made to a stranger who has nothing in common with the Speaker. If you interpret the passage to mean that He is isolated, I ask you whether you suppose that He was speaking with Himself? If you do not understand that He was speaking with Himself, how can you assume that He was isolated? If He were isolated, we should find Him described as isolated; if He had a companion, then as not isolated. I and Mine would describe the former state; the latter is indicated by Us and Our.

 

[JohnR77]

There is another question that I had on this.
God is unchangeable and immutable. …
Also, in his human form God the Son did not know the day or hour, even though God the Son was God and all-knowing? this is what is difficult to understand.

Yes. You are right. Trying to understand God who created the whole universe, from physics to calculus to woman’s emotion is sometimes beyond our comprehension. (I’m not trying to be sexist, but somethings are hard to understand!)

We start from what we do know. God created time (and space) so He is outside of it and unrestricted by it. By the Incarnation He chose to step into time, that is the Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature in addition to His Divine Nature. In His Divine nature He knows everything. In His human nature, although still One Divine Person, his knowledge is limited.

A mystery? Yes, the Hypostatic Union.

Why did Jesus pray “Why have you forsaken me?” And use the word
“worm” ?

Psalm 22.
Jesus was not just reciting this passage. He was praying it, and doing so for our benefit.

John 8:28-29
“So Jesus said (to them), ‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him.’ ”

**John 10:17-18, 30
“This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. … The Father and I are one.”
**

John 16: 32- 33
“Behold, the hour is coming and has arrived when each of you will be scattered to his own home and you will leave me alone. But I am not alone, because the Father is with me. I have told you this so that you might have peace in me.”
NAB

Jesus shows his unity with us in experiencing all the pains we might suffer. Yet, even then in Christ we have reasons to hope and have faith in the love and closeness of the Father even though we do not FEEL it.

This passage refers to when Jesus will be abandoned by most of the Apostles at the Cross, yet, Jesus informs us that the Father is, and will be, with Him at that time. Further, He says that this is to give us peace. He is implying that we will be treated by our Heavenly Father in our time of trial the same way the Father treated Him. We will not be abandoned or forsaken, it will only appear to be that way. See the end of the Psalm above. Christians are called to see the fullness of reality not by natural means but by supernatural faith, hope and love.
**You can see a link to Pope John Paul II’s comments on this passage at might page at
**

defendingthebride.com/je/forsaken.html
http://www.defendingthebride.com/je/forsaken.html

John