Where does the bible say that

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Neil_Anthony

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Where does the bible say that God only allows evil to occur so that good may come from it?

Also where does the Church teach this?

And does it really mean that even the free-will actions of evil people always serve a good purpose in God’s plan? I’ve been seeing everyone say that in the thread on free will and I’m confused that after 36 years of being a Catholic I had no idea that we’re supposed to believe that. 😊
 
A biblical example for you:

Genesis 50:[15] When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil which we did to him.”
[16] So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died,
[17] `Say to Joseph, Forgive, I pray you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.’ And now, we pray you, forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him.
[18] His brothers also came and fell down before him, and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
[19] But Joseph said to them, “Fear not, for am I in the place of God?
[20] As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
[21] So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he reassured them and comforted them.

Yes, God does bring good out of the evil men do and intend to do. 🙂
 
Della said:
A biblical example for you:

Genesis 50:[15] When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil which we did to him.”
[16] So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died,
[17] `Say to Joseph, Forgive, I pray you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.’ And now, we pray you, forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him.
[18] His brothers also came and fell down before him, and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
[19] But Joseph said to them, “Fear not, for am I in the place of God?
[20] As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
[21] So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he reassured them and comforted them.

Yes, God does bring good out of the evil men do and intend to do. 🙂
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Thanks… I’ve seen examples like this where God turned something bad into something good. I just didn’t realize we are supposed to believe that every single bad thing that ever happens to us is something God wanted to happen to us for a good purpose.

This scripture quote is a good example… it shows God using evil for good, but it doesn’t say that all evil is used for good. I just assumed this was a special case.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Thanks… I’ve seen examples like this where God turned something bad into something good. I just didn’t realize we are supposed to believe that every single bad thing that ever happens to us is something God wanted to happen to us for a good purpose.

This scripture quote is a good example… it shows God using evil for good, but it doesn’t say that all evil is used for good. I just assumed this was a special case.
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Ah, I see what you’re saying. No, we can’t always see how God turns evil into good in this life. When we see, if God should will that we see, all of history played out before us at the Judgment, then we will understand how God made good come out of evil in all circumstances. It’s a mystery and a paradox.

Of course, we can’t do evil in order to make good happen. As Paul said, “God forbid that we should sin so that grace might abound”. But, grace does abound where sin once ravaged, and in the same way, good does come from evil, by the grace and Providence of God.
 
Della said:
Ah, I see what you’re saying. No, we can’t always see how God turns evil into good in this life. When we see, if God should will that we see, all of history played out before us at the Judgment, then we will understand how God made good come out of evil in all circumstances. It’s a mystery and a paradox.
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Where did you learn that we’d be able to see, at the judgement, how God made good come out evil in every single circumstance? Is it in the catechism somewhere? Did you learn it in RCIA?

The way I saw it phrased was “God only allows an evil to occur if a greater good will come of it” but that was on here, not in the catechism.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Where did you learn that we’d be able to see, at the judgement, how God made good come out evil in every single circumstance? Is it in the catechism somewhere? Did you learn it in RCIA?

The way I saw it phrased was “God only allows an evil to occur if a greater good will come of it” but that was on here, not in the catechism.
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I can see how confusing this must seem. Myself, I think this is a little too simplistic an explanation (not erroneous, just not very satisfying.) I believe that evil is something of a mystery to us in this life, and can never be entirely dispensed with using a simple explanation like God will turn it to good.

I believe that God’s Will shall be done in all ways, even WITH evil, but NOT that God NEEDS to use evil. God hates evil more than we can ever comprehend. He has no wish for evil to be done, but regardless, evil will NOT prevent God’s will from being done. That is why there is a certain mystery to evil. 😦

It is helpful I suppose to have a ready answer for horrible evils, but I don’t think it can be explained away as easily as some may wish. 😦
 
See also Romans 8:28
We know that in everything God works for good * with those who love him, * who are called according to his purpose.
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Neil_Anthony said:
Thanks… I’ve seen examples like this where God turned something bad into something good. I just didn’t realize we are supposed to believe that every single bad thing that ever happens to us is something God wanted to happen to us for a good purpose.
This scripture quote is a good example… it shows God using evil for good, but it doesn’t say that all evil is used for good. I just assumed this was a special case.
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We aren’t supposed to believe that God “wanted” bad/evil things; rather, that He “allows” them. And, those He allows, He uses to produce a greater good.

If there were an evil deed that He did not wish to allow, He would intervene to prevent it. (I don’t know if there is any teaching that states it in this fashion, but it would be included under the Catholic teaching of God’s omnipotence - all powerful.)

Nita
 
Now I understand all those stories you see in movies/books and hear about where people lose their faith when their life gets bad. It’s because it simply doesn’t make sense to see everything bad as the will of God!

But this simply isn’t the God I’ve come to know. When something bad happens to me, God didn’t (usually) will it to happen for some greater good to come of it. God is there to help me with it, though. So the worse things get, the more I appreciate and love God.

Am I worshipping some other God?

And to add to the confusion, while the bible verses people posted hint about God turning evil into good, I haven’t seen anything in the catechism or the bible that clearly says that all evil is part of God’s plan. I always understood evil to be the result of God giving up control because we demanded to go our own way. And we’re stuck living with people (including ourselves) who do the opposite of God’s will.
 
The Gospel reading from today:
As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.
John 9:1-3
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I read that to say that his whole reason for being was so that he would be there when Jesus needed someone to cure. In some ways it seems rough that he spent 30+years blind just to play a part in a short drama. However, I suspect that he treasured that for the rest of his life, and now through eternity.
 
I always took that passage as Jesus answering to deny their idea that blindness was a punishment for sin, but without going into details about the biological causes. I never took it to mean that God actually made that person blind specifically so Jesus could heal him. But I see how God created a greater good from the evil.
 
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It is not helpful to think of this as too specific to particular events. The truth applies to each instance of evil as a general matter, not as though there were some ‘Rube Goldberg’ sequence of events that made each evil thing lead to some later good thing.

Rather, evil is the result of the free will of Satan and Adam. Choices made by these two free individuals brought evil – a sort of dysfunction or lack of good – into creation. Freewill, however, is necessary for love. Hence, it was for the greater good of love’s expression in creation that God allowed Satan and Man to do evil.

This general consideration is echoed in the effects of the Crucifixion. Once, evil entered the world, man was repugnant to God, because of the suffering which sin brought to every man. Christ converted suffering from a repugnant consequence of evil to a worthy expression of divine love. Hence, every instance of evil suffered since the Crucifixion has offered an opportunity for worship, if only the victims of the misdeed accept their suffering and offer it as an expression of love for God the Father. Thus, the baptized have a great opportunity to do the work of Christ with each instance of evil that they suffer.

In these two senses, it can be said that evil was allowed by God that a greater good might result. In the second case, however, Christians must cooperate for the good to be realized.

Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.

John Hiner
 
John_Hiner said:
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It is not helpful to think of this as too specific to particular events. The truth applies to each instance of evil as a general matter, not as though there were some ‘Rube Goldberg’ sequence of events that made each evil thing lead to some later good thing.

Rather, evil is the result of the free will of Satan and Adam. Choices made by these two free individuals brought evil – a sort of dysfunction or lack of good – into creation. Freewill, however, is necessary for love. Hence, it was for the greater good of love’s expression in creation that God allowed Satan and Man to do evil.

This general consideration is echoed in the effects of the Crucifixion. Once, evil entered the world, man was repugnant to God, because of the suffering which sin brought to every man. Christ converted suffering from a repugnant consequence of evil to a worthy expression of divine love. Hence, every instance of evil suffered since the Crucifixion has offered an opportunity for worship, if only the victims of the misdeed accept their suffering and offer it as an expression of love for God the Father. Thus, the baptized have a great opportunity to do the work of Christ with each instance of evil that they suffer.

In these two senses, it can be said that evil was allowed by God that a greater good might result. In the second case, however, Christians must cooperate for the good to be realized.

Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.

John Hiner
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Thank you. That’s much closer to how I thought it worked, but it’s interesting to watch for how God can turn evil into good.

The whole notion of God allowing evil because a greater good can come from it seems to contradict the basic moral principle that its never right to do an evil so that a greater good may come from it. But the way you explain it, it makes more sense, I think.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Where did you learn that we’d be able to see, at the judgement, how God made good come out evil in every single circumstance? Is it in the catechism somewhere? Did you learn it in RCIA?
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Not to nitpick but I didn’t say we were definitely going to be able to see all of history played out before our eyes. I was simply speculating that, for the sake of argument, “if God’s wills it” we will do so. And if he does allow it, we will be able to see how God created good out of evil.
The way I saw it phrased was “God only allows an evil to occur if a greater good will come of it” but that was on here, not in the catechism.
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I don’t believe the quote you cited, as it is stated, is Church teaching. I too have never heard that, nor do I think it’s the case. However, I do think that many evils God does turn to good, even if we do not see it here and now.

I hope that helps lessen any confusion I may have caused you. 😊
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Where does the bible say that God only allows evil to occur so that good may come from it? Also where does the Church teach this?

And does it really mean that even the free-will actions of evil people always serve a good purpose in God’s plan? I’ve been seeing everyone say that in the thread on free will and I’m confused that after 36 years of being a Catholic I had no idea that we’re supposed to believe that. 😊
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CCC #599-600 deals with the issue:Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.” This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God. To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Acts For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
It’s clear that not everything that happens is God’s will, that is, God’s choice. We know this because Jesus says not everyone will enter the Kingdom, only those who do the will of the Father: if everyone did God’s will, we’d all be going to heaven! But CCC #600 explains that God allows things to happen, based on “each person’s free response to his grace”. In other words, although God knows everything that will happen throughout time, he is not necessarily the one who chose that thing to happen: He gives us freedom of will. The will of God has two parts to it, then: the sovereign (that which is God’s choice) and the permissive (that which is our choice). God knows all that was, is, and will be, not because He is the author of every choice, but simply because He is God. God permitted Herod and Pilate to do what they did, because it led to the fulfillment of God’s sovereign will.

Long story short, God’s knowledge of all that is in time doesn’t make God the author of everything that happens in time. However, His sovereign will has already taken into account the choices we make of our own free will.
 
Closest I can come is Romans 8:28

[Rom 8:28] We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
 
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