"Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?" --What a Catholic Said About This Objection to Catholic Convictions

[mdgspencer]

see https://www.catholicconvert.com/blo...-the-bible-say-we-should-pray-to-dead-saints/

“From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with,” this article begins.
…
"I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” ([Lk 9:30]”

 

[Hodos]

And rather than rely on a descriptive text applying only to the revelation of Jesus as the Christ predicted in the Old Testament to substantiate a later development in practice, we usually point to the prescriptive Old Testament prohibitions against turning to necromancy and mediums.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

And then we Catholics would point to New Testament arguments about the eternal nature of the Body of Christ, those who died in Christ being more alive than we are, the cloud of witnesses, and saints offer up our prayers in the form of incense.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Saints are in Heaven and are fully ALIVE.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Anyone who thinks saints “can do nothing” hasn’t made any effort to get to know any of them. Their loss.

Saints are awesome. Of course, Jesus is more awesome, and the saints would be the first ones to tell you that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

we usually point to

You might want to be clear when you post in “Catholic Living” that you are giving a non-Catholic point of view. Otherwise it’s pretty confusing to people who don’t read regularly enough to know who is and is not Catholic.

 

[Saint_Prince_Caspian]

I think it’s a precursory question that is begged. Do those who think Saints as Dead, believe in the Communion of Saints? If so, is that Communion of the Dead, or the Living?

When Saint Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb, the Angel asks: “Why do you seek the living among the dead?”

I imagine this lady’s eyes looked up, and realized with heartfelt joy, Christ arose from the dead.

The Angel begged the question in rhetoric. Telling her that He did arise! The crypt that was sealed, was pushed aside and opened. Death no more! He prevailed as the Son of God.

Me and my humor. Did Saint Mary Magdalene not understand that from her 101 class at the feet of Christ, when in her sister’s (Martha’s) home? Bad student! That’s okay, the Angel was there for her remedial training. Hehehe

Thus, no one prays to the Saints because they pray to the dead. If someone says to me not to pray to the dead. I will tell them, I’m not. Then if they proceed to tell me the Saints are dead. Then I’d have to interject, and say they must not be saints. For, you cannot be a saint, and be dead (that’s what’s called Hell.) You can be asleep as Christ’s body was in Death. But He was not Dead. Nor are the saints.

There are Saints who have a particular grace, without having to adhere to Death after they pass away (kind of lesser version of Mary’s Assumption.)

There are those also in Purgatory, who we’re called to pray for in as much as the Saints are called to pray for us.

But again, to say that to someone who doesn’t believe in the Saints having arose to Eternal Life, though through death. The very people who counter, also counter purgatory.

When people tell you not to pray to the dead saints (poor adjective. But will let this one slide.) You can then say, “I will pray for you.”

That’s the best motive and purpose. Because, you are sharing the Communion of Saints with them, by offering prayer.

 

[Hodos]

And then we Catholics would point to New Testament arguments about the eternal nature of the Body of Christ, those who died in Christ being more alive than we are, the cloud of witnesses, and saints offer up our prayers in the form of incense.

If you read the Book of Revelation you will see it is not the saints who offer up our prayers in the form of incense, but the elders which are non-human entities, and that they offer up the prayers of the saints. The word saint in both Old and New Testament normatively refers to the assembly of believers who are alive, and in this case is speaking of those who are undergoing the tribulation. Not saying the church triumphant does nothing, but I am saying that taking descriptive passages out of context to somehow overturn prescriptive commands is a misuse of text.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

The word saint in both Old and New Testament normatively refers to the assembly of believers who are alive

The saints in heaven are more alive than we are.

I’m not disputing that the word saints often refers to us. I’m just pointing out that there is no reason that saints wouldn’t also refer to those who have gone before us since we are all apart of the Body of Christ.

the elders which are non-human entities

According to?

The elders are pretty obviously of human origin considering they are clothed in white (baptismal garments), wear crowns, and sit on thrones. They are clearly in leadership positions. Who they are we don’t know for sure, but considering the number 24 many have proposed that they are representatives of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles.

Not saying the church triumphant does nothing, but I am saying that taking descriptive passages out of context to somehow overturn prescriptive commands is a misuse of text.

With respect, I don’t think I’m the one taking the passage out of context.

 

[JanetF]

I’m posting from the parent site of this forum…

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

 

[Hodos]

I’m not disputing that the word saints often refers to us. I’m just pointing out that there is no reason that saints wouldn’t also refer to those who have gone before us since we are all apart of the Body of Christ.

In both NT and OT usage it almost exclusively refers to us. Is there anything in the text itself that leads you to believe it means otherwise?

According to?

The elders are pretty obviously of human origin considering they are clothed in white (baptismal garments), wear crowns, and sit on thrones. They are clearly in leadership positions. Who they are we don’t know for sure, but considering the number 24 many have proposed that they are representatives of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles.

Again, please demonstrate from the text. Considering they are grouped with the angels and the living creatures, and are listed separately from those who have washed their robes in the blood of Christ, they appear to be something other than human. Not ruling it out, but again, the burden of proof rests on you since you are defending a doctrine not explicitly stated.

With respect, I don’t think I’m the one taking the passage out of context.

Fair enough. Can you demonstrate from the text (in this incidence I assume you are speaking of the transfiguration since that it what I was referring to) where my statement that this is a descriptive passage demonstrating the Messiahship of Christ is taken out of context?

 

[Crocus]

If you read the Book of Revelation you will see it is not the saints who offer up our prayers in the form of incense, but the elders which are non-human entities, and that they offer up the prayers of the saints.

Who do you say are the non-human entities?

At physical death, do you suppose the saints cease to be joined to the living Body of Christ?

In both NT and OT usage it almost exclusively refers to us.

Since you say “almost exclusively,” you leave room for what? (Saints in heaven?)

EDIT: Thank you @mrsdizzyd for answers in your following post. Very thorough.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

In both NT and OT usage it almost exclusively refers to us. Is there anything in the text itself that leads you to believe it means otherwise?

At the outset, I’d like to remind you that Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura (a position that is itself unbiblical and thus self-refuting). We believe and profess that sacred tradition is as authoritative as scripture (a position that has a biblical basis). Nevertheless, you’ve ask for bible references, so I will give them to you.

I’ll refer you to Luke 20: 34-38. Christ makes clear here that those who “die” “worthy” of resurrection are alive in him.

I’ll also point you to 1 Corinthians 12 where Paul tell us about the body of Christ.

The Catholic position is really quite simply. Those who die in Christ are not dead at all. They are alive! We are all members of the same body of Christ. If the saints are alive, they never cease to be a part of the Body of Christ.

If they were saints when they walked the earth there is no reason to believe they aren’t when they are alive in Christ.

Again, please demonstrate from the text. Considering they are grouped with the angels and the living creatures, and are listed separately from those who have washed their robes in the blood of Christ, they appear to be something other than human. Not ruling it out, but again, the burden of proof rests on you since you are defending a doctrine not explicitly stated.

Rev 4:4
“Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭RSV-CI‬‬

I’m not aware of anywhere in the Bible where non-humans wear crowns of Gold, white garments, and are seated on thrones. Not to mention that we know that we are to “reign” with Christ.

(If you go to verses 10-11 you see the elders throw their crowns down and fall on their faces to worship God! What a beautiful scene. I’d interpret that as them casting aside their human/earthy authority in humility before their creator. Beautiful.)

Additonally, James 5:14 refers to “elders” of the church. I believe this word elder is translated from the Greek word for presbyter ie a priest. That’s even more reason to believe that the Elders of the book of Revelation are of human origin.

I don’t see anything in this text that would suggest the elders were not of human origin. You asserted that the elders were non-human. Do you have any evidence of that?

Fair enough. Can you demonstrate from the text (in this incidence I assume you are speaking of the transfiguration since that it what I was referring to) where my statement that this is a descriptive passage demonstrating the Messiahship of Christ is taken out of context?

I was never referring to the transfiguration, so I have no idea why you’d mention it. I think that was someone else. I was talking about revelations.

 

[Hodos]

Since you say “almost exclusively,” you leave room for what? (Saints in heaven?)

EDIT: Thank you @mrsdizzyd for answers in your following post. Very thorough.

I do leave room for that possibility due to Matthew 27:52 which speaks of the saints who had risen from the dead (note they are alive) and 1 Thessalonians 3:13 where it speaks of the reuniting of the saints of God (resurrected so again alive) at the escaton. Every other NT and OT reference to saints, and there are quite a few, is referencing the body of believers present in the assembly being addressed. A simple word search in your Bible will demonstrate what I am talking about. Again though, what is the context in the passages of Revelation? If you read Revelation you see the word saint being applied to the believers undergoing the great tribulation described by John. See verses 13:10 and 14:12 as examples. As a hermeneutical principle one looks at the text in the context in which the author is speaking in order to assess the meaning of a word that may carry a range of meanings, it is not done arbitrarily.

 

[Hodos]

I’ll refer you to Luke 20: 34-38. Christ makes clear here that those who “die” “worthy” of resurrection are alive in him.

I’ll also point you to 1 Corinthians 12 where Paul tell us about the body of Christ.

Right, we have no disagreement there. Again, though, why do you think this overturns prescriptive passages that command otherwise?

Additonally, James 5:14 refers to “elders” of the church. I believe this word elder is translated from the Greek word for presbyter ie a priest. That’s even more reason to believe that the Elders of the book of Revelation are of human origin.

This is quite possible, although not likely. The Greek word prebyteros, means elder (older person). This was later used to refer to priests, but again, there is nothing in the passage that seems to indicate this to be the usage indicated here, any more than the 7 lampstands don’t seem to indicate specific apostles sent to the 7 Churches in Asia, but appear to be supernatural in origin. So again, what in the text necessitates this conclusion?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Right, we have no disagreement there. Again, though, why do you think this overturns prescriptive passages that command otherwise?

What passages that “command otherwise”?

This is quite possible, although not likely.

I have given you my reasons with references. I’m still waiting for your references and reasons for why the passages tell us the elders are “non-human?

 

[Hodos]

Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6, Isaiah 8:19.

 

[Hodos]

I have given you my reasons with references. I’m still waiting for your references and reasons for why the passages tell us the elders are “non-human?

Two things, you are the one advocating the doctrine, and assuming the elders mentioned are human in nature. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. Since I am taking the negative view that these passages do not support the doctrine of praying to the saints, the only thing I need to do is demonstrate 1) nowhere are the prayers addressed to anyone but God, 2) the word saints in the passages you are citing doesn’t even stand up to scrutiny that these saints are in the Church triumphant. I agreed, it could be possible that the elders are human, but this seems to be the less likely view in light of the evidence we just discussed. And it would be irrelevant to your point. So again, if this doctrine is a requirement to be in communion with the Church, feel free to demonstrate how it is supported from the text.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6, Isaiah 8:19.

The saints aren’t mediums or wizards and we aren’t asking saints to consult the dead. Those scripture passages are completely irrevelant to what we are discussing.

Anything else?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Two things, you are the one advocating the doctrine, and assuming the elders mentioned are human in nature. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. Since I am taking the negative view that these passages do not support the doctrine…

You said:

but the elders which are non-human entities,

Which I asked you to support when I said “according to”.