"Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?" --What a Catholic Said About This Objection to Catholic Convictions

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

The saints aren’t mediums or wizards and we aren’t asking saints to consult the dead. Those scripture passages are completely irrevelant to what we are discussing.

No, you are advocating a doctrine that has you directly consulting the dead.

Except Christ said they are not dead. I believe him.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

So again, if this doctrine is a requirement to be in communion with the Church, feel free to demonstrate how it is supported from the text.

And so we are back to sola scriptura which is self-refuting and not a part of the Catholic faith. Anything else?

 

[Hodos]

And so we are back to sola scriptura which is self-refuting and not a part of the Catholic faith. Anything else?

No, I appreciate the dialogue and the admission that the apostolic texts do not support this doctrine.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The dead (and Elijah who was taken alive to heaven) are sometimes directly addressed in Sacred Scripture in ways that do not involve necromancy or mediums, similar to the way the angels are directly addressed in Psalm 103:20; 148:2; Daniel 3:58 NABRE:

And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and Jonathan his son, and he said it should be taught to the people of Judah; behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar. He said: . . . “Jonathan lies slain upon thy high places. I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.” (2 Samuel 1:17-18, 25b-26)

And the king lamented for Abner, saying, “Should Abner die as a fool dies? Your hands were not bound, your feet were not fettered; as one falls before the wicked you have fallen.” (2 Samuel 3:33-34)

And the king was deeply moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept; and as he went, he said, “O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would I had died instead of you, O Absalom, my son, my son!” (2 Samuel 18:33)

Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.(Daniel 3:86 NABRE )

How wise you [Solomon] became in your youth! You overflowed like a river with understanding. Your soul covered the earth, and you filled it with parables and riddles. Your name reached to far-off islands, and you were loved for your peace. For your songs and proverbs and parables, and for your interpretations, the countries marveled at you. In the name of the Lord God, who is called the God of Israel, you gathered gold like tin and amassed silver like lead. But you laid your loins beside women, and through your body you were brought into subjection. You put a stain upon your honor, and defiled your posterity, so that you brought wrath upon your children and they were grieved at your folly, so that the sovereignty was divided and a disobedient kingdom arose out of Ephraim. (Sirach 47:14-21)

How glorious you were, O Elijah, in your wondrous deeds! And who has the right to boast which you have? You who raised a corpse from death and from Hades, by the word of the Most High; who brought kings down to destruction, and famous men from their beds; who heard rebuke at Sinai and judgments of vengeance at Horeb; who anointed kings to inflict retribution, and prophets to succeed you. You who were taken up by a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with horses of fire; you who are ready at the appointed time, it is written, to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury, to turn the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. Blessed are those who saw you, and those who have been adorned in love; for we also shall surely live. (Sirach 48:4-11)

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

And so we are back to sola scriptura which is self-refuting and not a part of the Catholic faith. Anything else?

No, I appreciate the dialogue and the admission that the apostolic texts do not support this doctrine.

Nice try. If there were any biblical evidence to suggest that only the “text” is authoritative, I might concede, but we both know that doesn’t exist.

I’ve laid out my evidence. You’ve still offered none for you claim that the elders are non-humans. You also have not countered Christ’s words that those who die in him are alive. Instead, you point to scriptures about mediums and wizards that have nothing at all to do with those alive in Christ.

 

[Crocus]

but the elders which are non-human entities,

Post #8, first mention of non-human entities. The reference startled me, still waiting for your explanation why you think the elders are not the living saints in heaven with Jesus. And if not human, then what do you think they are?

 

[PeterT]

Hodos:

we usually point to

You might want to be clear when you post in “Catholic Living” that you are giving a non-Catholic point of view. Otherwise it’s pretty confusing to people who don’t read regularly enough to know who is and is not Catholic.

Or at the VERY least — as an alternative — list your religious denomination (or your faith tradition) on your user profile, especially when one uses the all-inclusive ‘we’ in their posts.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The dead (and Elijah who was taken alive to heaven) are sometimes directly addressed in Sacred Scripture in ways that do not involve necromancy or mediums, similar to the way the angels are directly addressed in Psalm 103:20; 148:2; Daniel 3:58 NABRE:

Another instance in Sacred Scripture of the dead being directly addressed that did not involve necromancy or mediums:

But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. (Acts 9:40)

There are even Scripture passages where false gods (whom St Paul says are demons, 1 Cor 10:20) and evil spirits are directly addressed:

Worship him, all ye gods. (Psalm 97:7b)

But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I charge you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” (Acts 16:18)