Where does the Book of Mormon talk about Siberians?

[Catholic20064]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas? When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

 

[Jerusha]

BH Roberts acknowledged that some of the BOM came from this book:
olivercowdery.com/texts/ethn1825.htm#pg047a
I think you will have to read the whole thing to get the picture. Evidently this is now an unacknowledged part of their sacred scriptures. I’ll give you a hint-- in his version, the Hebrews crossed the Siberian land bridge to get to the Americas. It also helps you understand the reason for claiming that Natives are degenerate Jews.

 

[ParkerD]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas? When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

20064,
The answer to your question will take several posts, because there are complex details to understand. Here is an excerpt from an Ensign article from many years ago, about the scattering of Israel particularly into Russia and into Europe:

"Changes in language provide only one kind of linguistic evidence we can use to identify the dispersion of Israel. Other linguistic evidence can be found in place names and in the names of various ancient peoples who lived north of the Middle East following the captivity of Israel. Many of these people migrated farther north and west into Russia, Scandinavia, Europe, and Britain.

The apocryphal book of 4 Ezra (a continuation of the book of Ezra in the Old Testament) describes how Shalmaneser, King of Assyria, took northern Israel captive. It also indicates, as Isaiah prophesied (see Isa. 10:27), that at least some of the Israelites escaped their captors and fled north.

According to the account in 4 Ezra (referred to in some editions as 2 Esdras), the fleeing captives “entered into Euphrates by the narrow passages of the river” and traveled a year and a half through a region called “Arsareth.” (4 Ezra 13:43–45.) The narrow passage could refer to the Dariel Pass, also called the Caucasian Pass, which begins near the headwaters of the Euphrates River and leads north through the Caucasus Mountains. At the turn of the century, Russian archaeologist Daniel Chwolson noted that a stone mountain ridge running alongside this narrow passage bears the inscription Wrate Israila, which he interpreted to mean “the gates of Israel.” 18

These narrow passages lead through a region called Ararat in Hebrew, and Urartu in Assyrian. Chwolson writes that Arsareth, mentioned in 4 Ezra, was another name for Ararat, a region extending to the northern shores of the Black Sea. 19 A river at the northwest corner of the Black Sea was anciently named Sereth (now Siret), possibly preserving part of the name Arsareth. Since ‘ar in Hebrew meant “city,” it is probable that Arsareth was a city—the city of Sareth—located near the Sereth River northwest of the Black Sea.

A number of other geographical locations in the area of the Black Sea have names that suggest Hebraic origins. For example, the names of the four major rivers that empty into the Black Sea seem to have linguistic ties to the tribal name of Dan. They are the Don (and its tributary the Don-jets), the Dan-jester (now Dnestr), the Danube (or Donau), and the Dan-jeper (now Dnieper). North of the Caspian Sea is a city called Samara (Samaria). There is also a city of Ismail (Ishmael) on the Danube, and a little farther upstream is a city called Isak (Isaac).

Chwolson and others of the Russian Archaeological Society found more than seven hundred Hebraic inscriptions in the area north of the Black Sea. According to Chwolson, one of these inscriptions refers to the Black Sea as the “Sea of Israel.” 20 On the Crimean Peninsula was a place referred to as the “Valley of Jehoshaphat,” a Hebrew name, and another place was called “Israel’s Fortress.” 21 According to the Russian archaeologist Vsevolod Mueller, there was an “Israelitish” synagogue at Kerch (a city on the Crimea) long before the Christian era. 22

It is difficult to date these inscriptions, but some of them contain information relating to the fall and captivity of Israel. Others appear to have been written about the time of Christ and even later, indicating that the area north of the Black Sea contained an Israelite population for many centuries. One of these inscriptions mentions three of the tribes of Israel as well as Tiglath-pileser, the first Assyrian king to transport large segments of the population of Israel to Assyria. 23 Another inscription mentions King Hoshea, who reigned in Israel during the years of Israel’s fall. 24 " (Ensign, Feb. 1994, "Tracing the Dispersion, Blodgett)

 

[ParkerD]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas? When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

20064,
If you have read 2 Nephi 1, you will notice the following passage where Lehi is prophesying about his posterity:

3 And he also spake unto them concerning the land of promise, which they had obtained—how merciful the Lord had been in warning us that we should flee out of the land of Jerusalem.
4 For, behold, said he, I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished.
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.
12 Yea, as one generation passeth to another there shall be bloodsheds, and great visitations among them;

I have underlined important parts so that you will understand that the Book of Mormon absolutely confirms that there would be other people in the Americas besides the Nephites and the Lamanites.

 

[ParkerD]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas? When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

20064,
You will also remember that there was a group of people called the Mulekites who ended up becoming intermingled with the Nephites and Lamanites but who were not known by the latter two groups until after over 300 years of both groups being in Central America or Mexico. They were both there, but had no knowledge that the other group was there.

Here are pertinent Book of Mormon verses:

Helaman 6:10 Now the land south was called Lehi, and the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.

Helaman 8:21 And now will you dispute that Jerusalem was destroyed? Will ye say that the sons of Zedekiah were not slain, all except it were Mulek? Yea, and do ye not behold that the seed of Zedekiah are with us, and they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem?

Mosiah 25:1 And now king Mosiah caused that all the people should be gathered together.
2 Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a descendant of Mulek, and those who came with him into the wilderness.
3 And there were not so many of the people of Nephi and of the people of Zarahemla as there were of the Lamanites; yea, they were not half so numerous.
4 And now all the people of Nephi were assembled together, and also all the people of Zarahemla, and they were gathered together in two bodies.
5 And it came to pass that Mosiah did read, and caused to be read, the records of Zeniff to his people; yea, he read the records of the people of Zeniff, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until they returned again.
6 And he also read the account of Alma and his brethren, and all their afflictions, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until the time they returned again.
7 And now, when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, his people who tarried in the land were struck with wonder and amazement.

Omni 1:12 Behold, I am Amaleki, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness—
13 And it came to pass that he did according as the Lord had commanded him. And they departed out of the land into the wilderness, as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord; and they were led by many preachings and prophesyings. And they were admonished continually by the word of God; and they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.
14 And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla. Now, there was great rejoicing among the people of Zarahemla; and also Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews.
15 Behold, it came to pass that Mosiah discovered that the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon.
16 And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.
17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them.
18 But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his language. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but not in these plates.
19 And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did unite together; and Mosiah was appointed to be their king.
20 And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.
21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.
22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward.

 

[Catholic20064]

20064,
If you have read 2 Nephi 1, you will notice the following passage where Lehi is prophesying about his posterity:

3 And he also spake unto them concerning the land of promise, which they had obtained—how merciful the Lord had been in warning us that we should flee out of the land of Jerusalem.
4 For, behold, said he, I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished.
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.
12 Yea, as one generation passeth to another there shall be bloodsheds, and great visitations among them;

I have underlined important parts so that you will understand that the Book of Mormon absolutely confirms that there would be other people in the Americas besides the Nephites and the Lamanites.

You’ve got to be kidding. That’s not an answer to my question. When does the Book of Mormon say that any of Lehi’s party intermarried with anyone else? Your quotes from the Book of Mormon in this regard seem irrelevant.

 

[ParkerD]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas? When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

20064,
To sum up briefly:

Lehi’s and Mulek’s groups were both in the Americas at the same time, but neither was aware of the other. Lehi had been promised that his descendents could possess the land where they dwelt without being overrun by other peoples, if they lived righteously, but they did not–so, they were indeed overrun by other people just as Lehi had prophesied they would be. The Nephites would be utterly destroyed, and the Lamanites almost destroyed but not utterly destroyed.

This is further prophesied in Helaman 15:12 Yea, I say unto you, that in the latter times the promises of the Lord have been extended to our brethren, the Lamanites; and notwithstanding the many afflictions which they shall have, and notwithstanding they shall be driven to and fro upon the face of the earth, and be hunted, and shall be smitten and scattered abroad, having no place for refuge, the Lord shall be merciful unto them.
13 And this is according to the prophecy, that they shall again be brought to the true knowledge, which is the knowledge of their Redeemer, and their great and true shepherd, and be numbered among his sheep.
14 Therefore I say unto you, it shall be better for them than for you except ye repent.
15 For behold, had the mighty works been shown unto them which have been shown unto you, yea, unto them who have dwindled in unbelief because of the traditions of their fathers, ye can see of yourselves that they never would again have dwindled in unbelief.
16 Therefore, saith the Lord: I will not utterly destroy them, but I will cause that in the day of my wisdom they shall return again unto me, saith the Lord.
17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord.

 

[ParkerD]

You’ve got to be kidding. That’s not an answer to my question. When does the Book of Mormon say that any of Lehi’s party intermarried with anyone else? Your quotes from the Book of Mormon in this regard seem irrelevant.

20064,
You have got to be the one who as got to be kidding. Does it not occur to you that people who live by each other intermarry? Do you not know the history of the world at all? Do you think that every group of people in history has kept themselves separate and never intermarried with outside groups? What sort of education have you had?

Oh, never mind. I had a strong hunch this was going to be way over your head. Keep your nice little picture that lets you keep your theories the way you want them to be. I really don’t care in the least. I realize you are better off rather than having to deal with cognitive dissonance about your theories.

 

[Catholic20064]

20064,
You have got to be the one who as got to be kidding. Does it not occur to you that people who live by each other intermarry? Do you not know the history of the world at all? Do you think that every group of people in history has kept themselves separate and never intermarried with outside groups? What sort of education have you had?

Oh, never mind. I had a strong hunch this was going to be way over your head. Keep your nice little picture that lets you keep your theories the way you want them to be. I really don’t care in the least. I realize you are better off rather than having to deal with cognitive dissonance about your theories.

Why would the Book of Mormon not mention the Nephites intermarrying with Asian descended Native Americans? It would seem to me to be a pretty big deal. The Bible discusses Israelites marrying other peoples as being one of their great sins. You would at least figure the Book of Mormon authors would mention them running into another race and intermarrying with them. And I’m not talking about the Mulekites since they would have been of the same race as the Nephites.

 

[ParkerD]

Why would the Book of Mormon not mention the Nephites intermarrying with Asian descended Native Americans? It would seem to me to be a pretty big deal. The Bible discusses Israelites marrying other peoples as being one of their great sins. You would at least figure the Book of Mormon authors would mention them running into another race and intermarrying with them. And I’m not talking about the Mulekites since they would have been of the same race as the Nephites.

20064,
Sorry to have been impatient in my last post. Please remember that Nephi and Mormon and Moroni, the principle writers/compilers of the Book of Mormon, have a complete picture in their mind of how the seed of Abraham is going to bless the entire world with the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They are aware of course that intermarriage with outside groups is a part of that process. It is a given. It doesn’t need to be mentioned at all, because it is already an understood basic premise of the Old Testament. The house of Israel will be scattered throughout the world, will be in apostasy, but will still be the Lord’s covenant people and will have intermingled with the Gentiles–and within that intermingled descendancy will be those who hear the voice of the good Shepherd, receive the gospel, and bless the world with it by bringing it to others. That is the major message of the Book of Mormon and of the books of Isaiah and Hosea in the Old Testament.

Again, sorry to have been impatient. I apologize. Have a good day.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think it important to note that the OT is tribal, not racial.

 

[zerinus]

I have read several statements from Mormons that their Nephites and Lamanites married Siberians who already lived in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites arrived. Can you tell me exactly where the Book of Mormon says the Nephites and Lamanites intermarried with another group of people that were already in the Americas?

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that teaches anything of that kind.

When I was a Mormon, I always thought the Native Americans all descended from Lehi and his fellow travelers to the Americas.

Yes, that has been the prevailing opinion, and I dare say to some extent it still is. However, in recent years another theory about the geographical spread of the Book of Mormon people has emerged known as the “limited geography theory”. There is some merit to it, because the distances that the Book of Mormon talks about, although large by their standards, would be relatively small compared to the whole area of the American continent; which implies that the Book of Mormon societies developed within a relatively small geographical area, which in turn implies that other (non-Israelite) societies might have existed on the continent at the same time unbeknown to them. There is some intellectual merit to it; but it is speculation. The truth of the matter is that it has not been revealed if such societies existed on the continent at that time or not.

zerinus

 

[pr35120]

20064,
Sorry to have been impatient in my last post. Please remember that Nephi and Mormon and Moroni, the principle writers/compilers of the Book of Mormon, have a complete picture in their mind of how the seed of Abraham is going to bless the entire world with the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They are aware of course that intermarriage with outside groups is a part of that process. It is a given. It doesn’t need to be mentioned at all, because it is already an understood basic premise of the Old Testament. The house of Israel will be scattered throughout the world, will be in apostasy, but will still be the Lord’s covenant people and will have intermingled with the Gentiles–and within that intermingled descendancy will be those who hear the voice of the good Shepherd, receive the gospel, and bless the world with it by bringing it to others. That is the major message of the Book of Mormon and of the books of Isaiah and Hosea in the Old Testament.

Again, sorry to have been impatient. I apologize. Have a good day.

do you know your history of the BOM, and the main author of the book of mormons.if you do, you would know that it is a joke.come on.wasnt it written in the 19 century or around then. it sounds like other stories mixed into one and racist. no one can even say that the history of the BOM, exist.

 

[ParkerD]

PR,
The Book of Mormon is not a joke. But thanks for adding your educated and studied opinion to the discussion of how it relates to the Old Testament and the scattering and gathering of Israel.

 

[Jerusha]

The Book of Mormon is not a joke.

Agreed.

it sounds like other stories mixed into one and racist.

Agreed.

it has not been revealed if such societies existed on the continent at that time or not.

Agreed

the OT is tribal, not racial

Agreed

Does it not occur to you that people who live by each other intermarry?

However, when one subjugates the other, part of that subjugation happens by rape of the overtaken. I don’t call that marriage. And, as in the case of the Ammonites, imposition of the religion of the overtakers on the subjugated. And a distorted version, at that.

OO I just love to take things out of context.

 

[ParkerD]

Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed
Agreed

However, when one subjugates the other, part of that subjugation happens by rape of the overtaken. I don’t call that marriage. And, as in the case of the Ammonites, imposition of the religion of the overtakers on the subjugated. And a distorted version, at that.

OO I just love to take things out of context.

Jerusha,
You certainly do love to take things out of context.

One of the significant themes of the Book of Mormon is that unrepentant, continuous sin against the commandments eventually leads a group of humankind that is thus enchained by the devil into a condition of total depravity, loss of love for their neighbors, much fighting and contention, and loss of human decency. The Book of Mormon serves a warning to our generation about the possible effects of total, complete disregarding of the commandments of God, or of not teaching our children to keep the commandments and stay out of the danger of the cunning deceit of the devil.

But guess what? Christ will win that battle, through people all over the world of many different religions, yours included. Christ will be the ultimate victor, as promised in the Bible as well as in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Jerusha]

Parker, we are agreed time and again about the meaning of the Book of Mormon. However, I STILL believe that it is a religious novel, you STILL believe that it is sacred scripture. And I believe that Mormons who give it that meaning are in the minority. They seem to think that they are an exception to the rule that you stated.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, we are agreed time and again about the meaning of the Book of Mormon. However, I STILL believe that it is a religious novel, you STILL believe that it is sacred scripture. And I believe that Mormons who give it that meaning are in the minority. They seem to think that they are an exception to the rule that you stated.

Jerusha,
Could you write such a “novel”? Do you know anyone in the world who you think could, including the first-person genuineness that is detectable throughout the book?

 

[Jerusha]

Yeah. Probably a much better one.

 

[ParkerD]

Yeah. Probably a much better one.

Jerusha,
The obvious question: who, and what have they written?