Where Does the Idea of Purgatory Come From?

[Geo17]

I’m still new here so if I put this in the wrong forum please forgive me, and feel free to move it.

I was born and raised Catholic. I was Baptized as a baby, made my 1st Communion at the appropriate age, and I was Confirmed at the age we do that. At 18 I gave up on God because I didn’t understand Him. I spent the next 10 years considering myself an atheist, but I still used to talk to God. At about 27 I felt a calling. I didn’t understand it one bit. But then I discovered the NIV Bible, because to this day I don’t understand Old English. I proceeded to read the NIV Bible, and I was very dismayed that it said next to nothing of what I was taught as a child growing up Catholic. I finished it in 3 years (I read slow). I then joined a Born Again Jesus Freak type church. The Jesus Freak movement was big back then. I never found a Born Again church I was comfortable in. I still read the Bible. I’ve also looked at other religions. Except for Protestant religions, all religions have a way God can deal with souls that weren’t good enough for Heaven, but not evil enough for hell. Most of them claim we relive another life. Even Jews believe this. But Catholicism believes in a place called Purgatory. It doesn’t come from the Bible. So I want to know where it comes from, and what exactly is it? Can anyone help me? I am very sincere in asking this.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m still new here so if I put this in the wrong forum please forgive me, and feel free to move it.

I was born and raised Catholic. I was Baptized as a baby, made my 1st Communion at the appropriate age, and I was Confirmed at the age we do that. At 18 I gave up on God because I didn’t understand Him. I spent the next 10 years considering myself an atheist, but I still used to talk to God. At about 27 I felt a calling. I didn’t understand it one bit. But then I discovered the NIV Bible, because to this day I don’t understand Old English. I proceeded to read the NIV Bible, and I was very dismayed that it said next to nothing of what I was taught as a child growing up Catholic. I finished it in 3 years (I read slow). I then joined a Born Again Jesus Freak type church. The Jesus Freak movement was big back then. I never found a Born Again church I was comfortable in. I still read the Bible. I’ve also looked at other religions. Except for Protestant religions, all religions have a way God can deal with souls that weren’t good enough for Heaven, but not evil enough for hell. Most of them claim we relive another life. Even Jews believe this. But Catholicism believes in a place called Purgatory. It doesn’t come from the Bible. So I want to know where it comes from, and what exactly is it? Can anyone help me? I am very sincere in asking this.

I don’t think this belongs in the philosophy section… but anyways purgatory is where people who have left this world in a state of friendship with God go to be purged of their impurity to prepare them for heaven. It was passed down as a part of the oral apostolic teaching and has been around since the days of old Judaism. In the deuterocanonical books of the original canonized scriptures (not in your NIV Bible) there are passages about praying for the dead for the purification of their souls.

 

[snarflemike]

The Catechism speaks of purgatory as a process, not a place. One can see why it was often considered a place given that heaven and hell are considered places, but whether it is a place or not, or whether it involves time or not, is completely irrelevant to the concept.

Where does the idea come from? It comes from divine revelation. And, stripped of the place/time baggage, every Protestant believes in it as well, since they all believe that we are not perfect on this earth, and that we will be perfect in heaven. Purgatory is this final process of perfection after death.

 

[devoutchristian]

One who dies in a state of friendship with God yet who has minor sins or who has the stain of sin on thir soul will not be damned. Yet such a person is not fit for Heaven, therefore they must be purified before they can enter Heaven. Also, Catholics do not believe in sola scriptura, the idea that the Bible is the supreme authority on matters of doctrine, we believe that Scripture and Tradition* are equal.

*Tradition is constituted by what has been orally handed down since the time of the Apostles.

 

[MJCamp]

Purification of death by fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[bzkoss236]

Here’s a few things that might help:

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory
aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/explaining_purgatory/
aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/where_purgatory_bible/

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is something that even a lot of Catholics are confused about. But the doctrine itself only describes 3 things about purgatory:

1. Purification after death exists for those who are destined for heaven, but are not yet pure.
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. This purification is aided by the prayers and offerings of the saints (both on earth and in heaven)

 

[R_C]

Purgatory in Sacred Scripture

**Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 **– Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell.

**Luke 12:47-48 **- when the Master comes, some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

**Luke 16:19-31 **- in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell.

**Heb. 12:23 **- the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect.

**1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 **- Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified.

**Rev. 21:4 **- God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification.

**Baruch 3:4 **- Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit.

**2 Macc. 12:43-45 **- the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin.

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved.

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

**Jude 1:23 **- the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell.

**Rev. 3:18-19 **- Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven.

 

[R_C]

Purgatory in Sacred Tradition

Clement of Alexandria, AD 202

Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism…the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one

Tertullian, AD 210

All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich…Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. ‘Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.’ Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline

Origen, AD 244

For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works

Lactantius, AD 307

But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame

Basil the Great, AD 370

I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained.

Gregory of Nyssa, AD 394

When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil

Augustine, AD 421

It is a matter that may be inquired into …] whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. …] During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth …] For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial …] temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then …] but of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next

Gregory the Great, AD 594

Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven ‘either in this world or in the world to come’? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m still new here so if I put this in the wrong forum please forgive me, and feel free to move it.

I was born and raised Catholic. I was Baptized as a baby, made my 1st Communion at the appropriate age, and I was Confirmed at the age we do that. At 18 I gave up on God because I didn’t understand Him. I spent the next 10 years considering myself an atheist, but I still used to talk to God. At about 27 I felt a calling. I didn’t understand it one bit. But then I discovered the NIV Bible, because to this day I don’t understand Old English. I proceeded to read the NIV Bible, and I was very dismayed that it said next to nothing of what I was taught as a child growing up Catholic. I finished it in 3 years (I read slow). I then joined a Born Again Jesus Freak type church. The Jesus Freak movement was big back then. I never found a Born Again church I was comfortable in. I still read the Bible. I’ve also looked at other religions. Except for Protestant religions, all religions have a way God can deal with souls that weren’t good enough for Heaven, but not evil enough for hell. Most of them claim we relive another life. Even Jews believe this. But Catholicism believes in a place called Purgatory. It doesn’t come from the Bible. So I want to know where it comes from, and what exactly is it? Can anyone help me? I am very sincere in asking this.

There is actually a link between Catholicism and Judaism concerning the concept of Purgatory, in that Jews pray for the deceased for a period of about one year so that their souls may be purified from sin and they may enter heaven. However, Jews do not believe “we relive another life” in the sense I think you mean. There is an idea (based on a few biblical verses, but not explicitly mentioned in Torah) among certain Orthodox Jews that a person may be reincarnated; however, rather than for the purpose of purification to enter a higher realm (as is believed in Hinduism), this reincarnation is purposefully designed to achieve something holy and Torah-centered in this life that was not accomplished the first time. I’ve also read that, according to Judaism, reincarnation for some people may actually be a punishment rather than a reward; but this seems to be not widely respected as a reason. None of these ideas about reincarnation is something any Jews are required to believe.

 

[pablope]

I’m still new here so if I put this in the wrong forum please forgive me, and feel free to move it.

I
Even Jews believe this. But Catholicism believes in a place called Purgatory. It doesn’t come from the Bible. So I want to know where it comes from, and what exactly is it? Can anyone help me? I am very sincere in asking this.

Purgatory has its roots in Judaism.

This is an exhaustive explanation of purgatory, from its OT roots to the NT:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

excerpts:

Biblical Evidence for Belief in sheol/Purgatory

Now, let’s just take a look at a few passages to see this. We can see for instance in 2nd Samuel 22. If you have a Bible, turn with me to the book of 2nd Samuel. In chapter 22, verse 6, we have an important passage. This, in effect, is a psalm of praise written by David talking about how he has been delivered. He describes his earthly suffering in cataclysmic and apocalyptic imagery to show how his earthly deliverances by God are signifying the ultimate deliverance that he will undergo at the grave. He says in verse 5, “For the ways of death encompassed me, the torrents of perdition assailed me, the cords of sheol entangled me, the snares of death confronted me, and in my distress I called upon the Lord. To my God I called…” And it goes on describing how in verse 20, for instance, “He brought me forth into a broad place.” It implies that sheol is a place of entanglement and perdition or at least, I should say, it’s a place where those who die go down.
Let’s turn now to 2nd Maccabees, chapter 12 and look together at verses 39 through 45. This is the locus classicus. This is the place you always turn as a Catholic to show this belief. But I might suggest that you don’t have to be a Catholic to find great insight in this passage. There’s no question in the minds of non-Catholic scholars that the seven books in the Old Testament that the Catholics include but the Protestants exclude were quoted and cited or alluded to by New Testament writers. I have several non-Catholic scholars who vigorously assert and affirm that.

 

[Porter_Disciple]

I would check into 2 Maccabees.

Also, at a time the early church considered the Book of Enoch canonical. Even today the Ethiopian Church maintains it as such. Unfortunately Ethiopia had become isolated and the book of Enoch was pretty much lost to everyone except them by the time of the third century, but Tertullian does make a claim and argument for it, as it was accepted by the Apostles and their followers.

But whether you accept the Book of Enoch as revelation or not is irrelevant. At the very least, it attests to the mindset, at the time of Christ and the Apostles, the belief that there are two fires, two hells- a temporary one for purification, and an eternal one, from which none may ever leave.

 

[Robyn_p]

There is actually a link between Catholicism and Judaism concerning the concept of Purgatory, in that Jews pray for the deceased for a period of about one year so that their souls may be purified from sin and they may enter heaven.

Thank you for that. A lot of people seem to think purgatory just popped out of nowhere in the Middle Ages.

Geo17

As you can see, the idea of purgatory is found in Catholicism’s Jewish roots. It really seems to make sense when you think about it. Nothing sinful or unclean can stand to be in the presence of God. (Rev 21:27) But most of us when we die are not wholly purified. The Bible even says that. 2 Cor 7:1 Paul says “Since we have these promises beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit and make holiness perfect in the sight of God” Also Hebrews 12:14 “Let us STRIVE for the holiness without which no one will see The Lord” In both of these, Paul is writing to Christians who believe in Jesus. Yet he says they still need to be purified.

If this purification hasn’t been finished at death, yet the person has not rejected God, then it makes sense there must be some sort of purification process after death before a soul enters heaven. And we do see something like that in Scripture. 1 Cor 3:11-15

For no other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid, Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each mans work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it. And the fire will test what sort of work each man has done. If the work which any man builds on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any mans work is burned up, he will * suffer loss * though he himself will be saved, * but only as through fire*

The Day is obviously referring to the judgment, which we know comes after death (Heb 9:27) and the works would be referring to works done by us, either good works (gold, precious stones, silver) or imperfect works (wood, hay, stubble) and they are tested. If they are imperfections, they are burned up, and the person suffers, but is still saved through fire. That’s a really good definition of purgatory right there.

One last point, we don’t believe purgatory is another place separate from heaven or a final destination. It’s just a process by which we are purified from our sins and attachments to sin after death on our way into heaven. The details of what that entails is not known. All the Church teaches is that it happens.

Anyway, I hoped that helped clear some stuff up for you! As you can see, the belief stems from Judaism, and the concept is very biblical, though the words itself may not be found in the Bible.

Oh and welcome to the forums!

 

[Geo17]

Hello All,

Wow, I can see most of you are more learned than me. I think this is partly due to my age. When I was younger, the mass was still said in Latin, and the priests frowned upon anyone who wanted to read the Bible. So when I walked away from the church at 18, I really didn’t know what I was walking away from. The next 10 years of my life weren’t very good. Even though I used to say I didn’t believe God even existed, I often used to talk to Him when I was alone. It was a very bad time for me. At 27 years of age, I now think it was God who was calling to me. I wanted to know God, but didn’t know how. My Mother was a very devoted Catholic and she owned a very large Catholic Bible which even had some of the more famous stories (like Samson) in picture form. I tried reading the actual text, and since it was translated in the Old Style of English, I couldn’t understand it. So one night while I was in a mall a strange looking little man handed me something I thought was yet another Christian Tract. (I worked in the city back then and every week someone handed me a Tract) But this was something different. It was the Gospel according to John. I opened it and there were no thees, thous, or words like it seemeth, that my Mother’s Bible was full of. It was the NIV translation which was brand new back then. I decided to read it to prove God didn’t exist. But the Holy Spirit must have been with me, because by the time I finished it, I felt hungry for more. At the back of it was a number I could call to order the whole Bible in the NIV. I did, and from then on I would read it on the train going to and from work, and whenever I had spare time. Back then there was only channels 2 - 13 on TV, and I used to watch the Protestant evangelists. Eventually I joined a church some of my old HS buddies belonged to. It wasn’t a very good church, and one of the first things I noticed was that the people there didn’t practice what they preached. And in the last 30 years, I’ve found this to be true of every church I joined. And it’s only gotten worse. It’s reached the point where all the Protestant people I known claim that what we do means nothing. All that matters is what we say we believe. But the more I read the Bible, the more convinced I became that what we do is almost more important to God, than what we say we believe. So I’m been constantly accused of promoting a salvation through works doctrine. But I’m not saying we can get saved by being good. I’m just saying what we do matters. And since Catholics always believed that, I’ve come back to trying to understand exactly what and why Catholics believe what they do.

And you all are very smart. I must have read 1 Corinthians ch 3 a dozen times, but I never understood it the way one of you explained it above. I also like the fact that Catholics admit there are mysteries in our faith. And while I still hold the Bible to be the prime authority about God, I have done some extracurricular reading myself. One of them is 1 of the books of Enoch, and I’m glad to see the Catholics don’t automatically dismiss it like most Protestants do.

So I have to move very slowly because I don’t want to get myself confused again. That happened to me 20 years ago when a cousin I love as a brother got mixed up with new age spirituality. It has done him no good, and me trying to rescue him from it didn’t do me any good neither.

So I thank you all who answered me, and I’ll be back.

John

 

[snarflemike]

Sounds like you’re on an interesting journey, and that you have an open mind. That’s a Good Thing.

The Catholic bible that is generally considered to be the best translation these days is the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (RSV-CE). The bible you probably read is called the Douay–Rheims translation. It came out at roughly the same time as the King James Bible.

If you’re having another look at the Catholic Church, you should also pick up a copy of the Catechism (CCC).

 

[bzkoss236]

Hello All,

Wow, I can see most of you are more learned than me. I think this is partly due to my age. When I was younger, the mass was still said in Latin, and the priests frowned upon anyone who wanted to read the Bible. So when I walked away from the church at 18, I really didn’t know what I was walking away from. The next 10 years of my life weren’t very good. Even though I used to say I didn’t believe God even existed, I often used to talk to Him when I was alone. It was a very bad time for me. At 27 years of age, I now think it was God who was calling to me. I wanted to know God, but didn’t know how. My Mother was a very devoted Catholic and she owned a very large Catholic Bible which even had some of the more famous stories (like Samson) in picture form. I tried reading the actual text, and since it was translated in the Old Style of English, I couldn’t understand it. So one night while I was in a mall a strange looking little man handed me something I thought was yet another Christian Tract. (I worked in the city back then and every week someone handed me a Tract) But this was something different. It was the Gospel according to John. I opened it and there were no thees, thous, or words like it seemeth, that my Mother’s Bible was full of. It was the NIV translation which was brand new back then. I decided to read it to prove God didn’t exist. But the Holy Spirit must have been with me, because by the time I finished it, I felt hungry for more. At the back of it was a number I could call to order the whole Bible in the NIV. I did, and from then on I would read it on the train going to and from work, and whenever I had spare time. Back then there was only channels 2 - 13 on TV, and I used to watch the Protestant evangelists. Eventually I joined a church some of my old HS buddies belonged to. It wasn’t a very good church, and one of the first things I noticed was that the people there didn’t practice what they preached. And in the last 30 years, I’ve found this to be true of every church I joined. And it’s only gotten worse. It’s reached the point where all the Protestant people I known claim that what we do means nothing. All that matters is what we say we believe. But the more I read the Bible, the more convinced I became that what we do is almost more important to God, than what we say we believe. So I’m been constantly accused of promoting a salvation through works doctrine. But I’m not saying we can get saved by being good. I’m just saying what we do matters. And since Catholics always believed that, I’ve come back to trying to understand exactly what and why Catholics believe what they do.

And you all are very smart. I must have read 1 Corinthians ch 3 a dozen times, but I never understood it the way one of you explained it above. I also like the fact that Catholics admit there are mysteries in our faith. And while I still hold the Bible to be the prime authority about God, I have done some extracurricular reading myself. One of them is 1 of the books of Enoch, and I’m glad to see the Catholics don’t automatically dismiss it like most Protestants do.

So I have to move very slowly because I don’t want to get myself confused again. That happened to me 20 years ago when a cousin I love as a brother got mixed up with new age spirituality. It has done him no good, and me trying to rescue him from it didn’t do me any good neither.

So I thank you all who answered me, and I’ll be back.

John

Take your time. God has you on a journey. You don’t want to jump the gun. It takes a lot of prayer and discernment to come to understandings. I wish you good luck and God bless you on your journey.

And welcome to the forums!

 

[R_C]

It’s reached the point where all the Protestant people I known claim that what we do means nothing. All that matters is what we say we believe. But the more I read the Bible, the more convinced I became that what we do is almost more important to God, than what we say we believe. So I’m been constantly accused of promoting a salvation through works doctrine. But I’m not saying we can get saved by being good. I’m just saying what we do matters. And since Catholics always believed that, I’ve come back to trying to understand exactly what and why Catholics believe what they do.

Hi John, thanks for being here and for your kind words This part of your message appears very nice to me (and to others, I am sure), because it shows your spontaneous grasp of God’s thoughts on these matters. Indeed, Christ made it very clear that He wanted us to do things. The main and most striking difference between the Lord’s teachings and the Law and Prophets is that the latter was a passive obedience of the Law, a passive faith, while the former was an active fulfilling of God’s will, a faith with works, which through grace fulfilled the Law. No longer we were told: “do not do to others…”, but rather: “do to others”! No longer we were told: “do not murder, do not commit adultery”, but, rather, love your neighbor, forgive your brother, pray for your enemy. Christ gave us one commandment: love one another. Love is an active act, not a passive one. Christ would not redeem mankind without personally coming in the flesh, walking with us, eating with us, laughing and crying with us, suffer along those who suffer, rejoice amidst those who rejoice. He did not disdain to walk miles upon miles, preaching, healing…and He did not disdain to work for thirty years as a humble carpenter…and in such a regular, almost hidden life, the Son of God did save souls and give glory to the Father, and He set an example for us: not all are called to be shepherds, not all are called to be preachers, not all have the same gifts…but each and everyone of us can serve God and save souls in accordance with his or her state of life.

I posted a few more things about the Catholic doctrine on salvation and grace compared with the original protestant views of Luther, Calvin, etc. here (1, 2).

If you want to learn more about the history of the Catholic Church in general, I recommend this book - probably the best of its kind.

 

[Geo17]

SnarfulMike (hope I spelled that right) you made me laugh. (a good thing) Not your post, but because for religion you put Catholic>atheist>Catholic. I found that amusing because I went Catholic>atheist>Born Again Christian. However, I must say something about this. To be Born Again is surely a real thing because Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be Born Again. But what I’ll refer to as the Born Again or Jesus Freak movement of the late 1960’s, 70’s, and beginning of the 1980’s, was a false movement. I can even call it a failed experiment. As I’ve said, I’m a fairly old guy. I’m 60, and I don’t know if any of you were around back then. But false prophets were a dime a dozen and I met many of them. The 1st was Herbert W. Armstrong. He gave away all his books and his magazine free, so I figured he must have been the real deal. And I did learn some right things from him. For example I read his booklet on the 10 Commandments, and what he said about not taking God’s name in vain, went straight to my heart. I decided back then I’d never use the names God or Jesus unless I was talking about God or Jesus. That was really hard, especially because I worked in NY City. Suddenly I had to find new ways to make other people realize I was serious in what I said. Because almost everyone else did it by using God’s name in vain. But I did it and if I can do it anyone can. I cringe every time I hear a supposed Christian use God’s name in vain. I’m not bragging. I’m just saying God can use even a false prophet to teach one of us something.

And thank you to whoever said I have an open mind. I hope so. I try very hard to. But at the same time I have to always be alert to discern the lies of the enemy.

I didn’t live my life right, so I don’t have money to buy any books. I just have to make do with what I already have, and what I can get off the Internet. Now about the Catholic Catechism, about 7 years ago someone gave me a CD and he said it’s the Catholic Catechism. It’s a very large CD data wise. I’ve found writings on it that are supposed to be from the early Popes. Do you folks think it’s authentic? It looks authentic.

Now to get back to my purgatory question. From what some of you said, purgatory may be a state of being, as well as maybe a place after death. (I know this is a tough question, and a guess may be all anyone can do) 12 years ago my life changed radically, and not for the better. I never had much family, no brothers, sisters, wives, nor children. My father died when I was 23, leaving just me and my Mother. Most of my cousins on my Mother’s side, who I was VERY close with, I lost to the New Age. One of them even married the New Age guru guy, who as of 8 years ago, changed his name and claimed to be a Catholic. Well, even Jesus said there would be false prophets all over the place, especially as we get closer to His return. I’ve also heard from people who claimed Mary appeared to them, and they told me Mary said her Son’s church has already been invaded, so we need to be very careful who we listen to. I believe this guru guy is one of the people both Jesus and Mary have warned against. So that was the end of me being close to my Mother’s side of the family. And my father’s side of the family all disowned me after my Mother died. They all have one or another grudge against me, and in almost each case they’re wrong, but won’t listen to reason. I guess it’s easier for them to dislike me. They’re all Catholic or Catholic and Christian, so they must know Jesus teachings on forgiveness. But they don’t believe it applies to me. And since I’m new here, let me say I didn’t do anything terrible like murder, or live a life of crime. So I’m all alone in this world, except for God and friends on the Internet. This hurts me everyday that the family I was close with up until 12 years ago, won’t even speak to me. If purgatory is a state of being, maybe I’m already in purgatory? Because whereas some people get angry at God when things go wrong, or others might say they don’t believe in God anymore, because of what has gone wrong, I keep thinking and praying to God. If this misery I’m now in is from God, then He’s still a righteous judge. And maybe He’s allowing this while I’m on Earth, so that He can bring me to Heaven when I die. I hope. I can’t ask this of Protestants, because they see everything in black or white. There’s no grays with them.

Which is actually another reason I’m looking at Catholicism again. All people ask, “what’s it all about”, or “why are we even here?” I say for several reasons. And unfortunately one of them is to suffer. I don’t know why that is, but it certainly seems to be true. To Protestants all suffering comes from the devil, and most of them think God put us here to be happy. As if He said “Thou shalt be happy”. But what He really said is we should be Holy. God wants us to make Him the delight of our hearts, and then we will be happy. But I went off on a tangent. Sorry about that, it’s because I’m lonely that I go off on tangents so much.

So to recap, if purgatory is a state of being, is it possible what has happened in the last 12 years is purgatory?

I know this was very long. Thank you to anyone who read it.

 

[bzkoss236]

It has been said that people who suffer in this world are ‘going through purgatory’, which could very well be, because purgatory is a purgation/purification process.

Also, Catholics believe we must be born again as well. However, we believe being born again is synonymous with receiving baptism (instead of the moment of a declaration of faith) when you die as your former self and are born again in the Spirit a new creature.

 

[meltzerboy]

It has been said that people who suffer in this world are ‘going through purgatory’, which could very well be, because purgatory is a purgation/purification process.

Also, Catholics believe we must be born again as well. However, we believe being born again is synonymous with receiving baptism (instead of the moment of a declaration of faith) when you die as your former self and are born again in the Spirit a new creature.

I don’t think purgatory, according to both Catholicism and Judaism, can take place in the present life. The suffering we experience in the here and now may diminish the purgatory state after death but I don’t believe, according to our respective theologies, that it can substitute for it.

 

[Porter_Disciple]

Geo17:
To borrow a line from numerous theologians and some saints,

“Purgatory begins on Earth.”

We can say that, in some ways, we can experience all three states while on Earth, in a limited way. The distinction being that while we are still living, we can never be permanently, irrevocably committed without the potential to change.

So, we get close to heaven via being rapt in ecstasies, or in Unitive divinization (Theosis-esque).

We pretty much live in a state of purgatory if we are striving for holiness.

Or, we are backsliding into hell, where we head to despair. Once we despair, we get close to the place of Hell.

The difference is that, here, on Earth, we can change our destinies in Eternity, for better or worse, unlike purgatory which is a cleansing, but all souls there do not despair- they are all headed to heaven.