Where does the "Moon God" myth of Islam come from?

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thankfully my friend. only 1% of Muslims take these passages literally. unfortunately that 1 % adds up to 10 million…Most Muslims just want to be left alone, to raise their families, and be left alone. Just like us. They also have some wonderful cultural aspects that I for one, since I live among these people enjoy. They are not all terrorist. As far as the Moon god thing goes? Ive always heard that Allah is the moon god, and Mohammed simply chose him from all the other pagan deities the Arab people used to worship. Nothing has convinced me otherwise. The Christians and Jews are united by virtue of the Tetrigrammitan. Allah is something different in my opinion. Peace 🙂
Yes!

Two intersting thoughts- the non-terrorist muslims are not following Islam and Mohammad to the fullest.

And
Have you seen any of the polls taken of “moderate” muslims?

newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/12/20/poll-suggests-even-moderate-muslims-have-extreme-beliefs
 
Sura 53. an-Najm: The Star

19 Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza
20 And Manat, the third, the other ?

Are you claiming that:
  • the Q’ran is a lie;
  • Mohammed wrote lies in the Q’ran?
Let us not forget that al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat are the daughters of Hubal, the moon god of Mecca. And that the Kaaba in Mecca was where Hubal was worshipped.

jonathon
To be fair you can not take verses out of context. BUT the context of the Quran is a jumbled mess see the following verses much later:

053.023
YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
PICKTHAL: They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from their Lord hath come unto them.
SHAKIR: They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
 
Asherah was worshipped in the Temple in Jerusalem as well during parts of Hebrew history as well.
Oh there were many issues with the early Hebrews in converstion and false Gods. Asherah was goddess of the sea and worshipped for sure especially in Jerusalem, 2-Kings I believe mentions this. Not with Christs followers though or when the messianic prophecy was fulfilled.
 
Yes!

Two intersting thoughts- the non-terrorist muslims are not following Islam and Mohammad to the fullest.
This kind of statement simply makes no sense. Who gave you the right to say what is the “fullest” version of Islam? And why on earth would you care?

Edwin
 
Jharek,
I think the reason why lies with the kabaa. It was clearly an ancient site of pagan worship. Now truth be told the Muslims don’t worship a moon god. They worship God the Father, the way they were taught by Mohammed. They worship at the kabaa the way Christians worship at converted pagan temples. The difference lies in the way the muslims created a story to explain the kabaa’s existance not as the pagan temple it was, but as a lost Abrahamic artifact.
Code:
  When Christians take over and convert a temple (as far as I know) they don't hide the fact that it was a pagan temple before; they simply tell how it was destroyed purified and then converted for Christian worship.  

 Take Saint Maron the one from whom the Maronites take their name.  He was a Catholic priest in the 4th century in Lebanon.  He is credited with converting many pagan temples to Christianity with his holiness and humility, healing the sick and driving out demons.  His holiness drew people to him so that a monastic community formed around him and later became the Maronites.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
 
I guess somehow Muslims worship the same God. Sure they’re responsible for a lot of violence against other Muslims and those who are not Muslims, but we act nice to them so they don’t shoot us.👍
 
I guess somehow Muslims worship the same God. Sure they’re responsible for a lot of violence against other Muslims and those who are not Muslims, but we act nice to them so they don’t shoot us.👍
That’s kind of an incoherent post.

We should speak the truth, whatever the consequences.

In this case, speaking the truth (historically confessed by Christians) that all monotheists worship the true God gets one called names by anti-Muslim Christians on discussion forums.

Not that bad a consequence, really. But it has nothing to do with wanting not to be shot by Muslims. It has to do with preserving orthodox Christianity and not distorting our theology because of our dislike of another religion.

Edwin
 
Asherah was worshipped in the Temple in Jerusalem as well during parts of Hebrew history as well.
JL: I have never heard that Asherah was worshipped IN the Temple? Scripture tells us Solomon with his many foreign wives set up shrines for them to worship their pagan gods, 1Kgs11. Over time some Israelites, began to worship idols. In several hundred years idol worship had infected most of Judaism. Idol worship was never a teaching of Judaism, it simply creped in through lack of correction and bad example by those in charge. King Hezekiah, a man of God, finally took charge and had all these idols and shrines torn down, 2Kgs18. He even had the Brass Serpent that God commanded Moses to erect, to heal those bitten by serpents in the desert, destroyed. The Brass Serpent was in the public area of the Temple and the Israelites had started to worship it, burning incense before it.
 
This kind of statement simply makes no sense. Who gave you the right to say what is the “fullest” version of Islam? And why on earth would you care?

Edwin
Actually it makes perfect sense.

You must know the history of Islam to understand.

In a nutshell. Mohammad was peaceful in the beginning. As his followers grew in number he became violent. Allah conveniently sent down violent verses that happened to be considered better verses- muslims refuse to say there is abrogation so the later verses are the better verses.

Muslims believe they are supposed to be following Mohammad. Have you read the hadiths?

Islam is an ideology- have you read anything about sharia law?

Want to be a good muslim and reach paradise? The only sure way, otherwise allah chooses who he will:
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
 
To be fair you can not take verses out of context. BUT the context of the Quran is a jumbled mess see the following verses much later:
If you go into the earlier redactions of the q’ran, it is clear that those deities were to be worshipped. I lent my critical edition out, and it wasn’t returned.

jonathon
 
Actually it makes perfect sense.

You must know the history of Islam to understand.

In a nutshell. Mohammad was peaceful in the beginning. As his followers grew in number he became violent. Allah conveniently sent down violent verses that happened to be considered better verses- muslims refuse to say there is abrogation so the later verses are the better verses.
I’m not sure what you mean by “muslims refuse to say there is abrogation.” I think you mean that Muslims do believe in abrogation. I know that this is a traditional doctrine–I also know that not all Muslims believe in it in the sense of abrogating the more “peaceful” passages by the more violent ones.

You aren’t telling me anything I don’t know. None of this gives you the right to decide that Muslims who don’t interpret the Qur’an as you do are somehow “bad Muslims.”
Muslims believe they are supposed to be following Mohammad. Have you read the hadiths?
A few selections. I know that there are all sorts of things in the hadith, and that different Muslims emphasize different aspects. Again, it makes no sense for an outsider to say that those Muslims who interpret the hadith otherwise than you do are not “real” or “good” or “full” Muslims.
Islam is an ideology- have you read anything about sharia law?
Something, yes. I’m not sure what the phrase “Islam is an ideology” is even supposed to mean. How are you defining “ideology”?

I do know that modern fundamentalist Muslims do not follow traditional Islam in all respects, and that the ideology of militant Islam is a modern creation. I know that the people who study Islam full-time do not agree with your picture of Islam, and I am unpersuaded by the arguments presented by some attempting to show that people who study Islam for a living can’t be trusted.

I also know that while you speak of shari’a, you are ignoring the specifics of the law of jihad, which puts limits on warfare. You claim to know a lot about Islam, but I am unpersuaded.

Please understand that I’m not denying that there are some very disturbing and reprehensible things in Islam. I think Islam has more trouble overcoming its violent elements than Christianity does–and God knows we’ve had enough trouble with violence in Christianity. I do not buy the “religion of peace” rhetoric either. I am trying to look at the picture as fairly as possible.

Edwin
 
I am trying to look at the picture as fairly as possible.

Edwin
How do you do it? What is fair to you?

Do you think that Jihad is an important aspect of Islam and that a good Muslim has to obey this command when necessary? What do you think that Jihad entails in a way that is fair to you?
 
How do you do it? What is fair to you?

Do you think that Jihad is an important aspect of Islam
It seems to be, in one way or another.
and that a good Muslim has to obey this command when necessary?
What do you mean by “a good Muslim”? I gather that you don’t mean “a good person who is a Muslim.” You seem to mean “good by the standards of Islam.” But of course, only Muslims get to say what the standards of Islam are. And if one Muslim says that the standards are one thing, and another Muslim says that the standards are something else, there is no criterion whatever by which you and I can adjudicate the dispute. Of course we can observe what appears to be the mainstream position, both at the present moment and/or throughout history. And of course we can engage in historical inquiry as to what Muhammad and the early Muslims thought. But historical inquiry engaged by outsiders as to what the founders of a religion thought rarely coincides with what insiders to a religious tradition believe to be the core meaning of the tradition. (Find me a non-Christian scholar of early Christianity who thinks that Jesus intended to found Christianity in anything remotely like the form in which it now exists.) Furthermore, in fact professional scholars of Islam generally do not agree with the very dark picture painted by anti-Islamic polemicists. It’s certainly possible that these scholars are trying to hard to be fair to Islam, and thus are engaging in a certain amount of whitewashing. And of course serious scholars of Islam recognize that there’s been violence in Islam pretty much from the beginning. But in fact what you and others are claiming to be “real Islam” does not actually coincide (in all its particulars–not saying it has no scholarly support) with what scholars such as Marshall Hodgson or John Esposito regard as the historic mainstream of the tradition.
What do you think that Jihad entails in a way that is fair to you?
Many Muslims today regard jihad either in a purely spiritualized sense or as a struggle for righteousness which may involve defensive warfare. It seems pretty clear that traditional Islamic law does not take that position.

The traditional schools of Islamic law, as far as I’m aware, regard jihad as a war against non-Muslim governments, with the purpose of establishing Islamic law over all the world and forcing non-Muslims to pay tribute. The duty of jihad devolves primarily on Islamic governments, but also is binding to some degree on individual Muslims (I believe that the different schools differ somewhat on this point). Theoretically, traditional law does not recognize the possibility of a permanent peace between Muslim and non-Muslim governments, although there can be periods of truce which in practice may last for centuries.

Apart from those Muslims who simply choose to disregard Islamic law and take a more liberal position (unfortunately, there are those, such as Osama bin Laden, who disregard traditional law on the other side, rejecting the limits which the traditional schools place on the conduct of warfare), there are also those who argue that the traditional categories apply only to non-Muslim governments that persecute Islam. In the Middle Ages, the argument goes, this would have applied to all governments. Of course, that position lays itself open to the argument (made by bin Laden in his 1996 fatwa) that U.S. support for Israel and military presence in the Middle East constitutes aggression/persecution against Islam.

At any rate, I cannot see that the reinterpretations of the tradition engaged in by moderate Muslims are any more intellectually dishonest or historically bogus than many similar reinterpretations of Scripture and tradition engaged in by Christians (particularly Catholics with regard to tradition, since Protestants are willing to disregard non-Biblical tradition if necessary). Religious traditions develop and are frequently reinterpreted. If Muslims choose to engage in such a reinterpretation in a moderate direction, I see no reason to stand in their way, and I have no criterion by which to declare their views to be “bad Islam” even if I had the desire to do so!

Edwin
 
Sura 53. an-Najm: The Star

19 Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza
20 And Manat, the third, the other ?

Are you claiming that:
  • the Q’ran is a lie;
  • Mohammed wrote lies in the Q’ran?
Let us not forget that al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat are the daughters of Hubal, the moon god of Mecca. And that the Kaaba in Mecca was where Hubal was worshipped.

jonathon
Let’s keep reading, shall we?

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?
And Manat, the third - the other one?
Is the male for you and for Him the female?
That, then, is an unjust division.
They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.

God just said that those people made up those deities and denounced any kind of worship of them.

So basically, your conclusion was a lie.
 
I guess somehow Muslims worship the same God. Sure they’re responsible for a lot of violence against other Muslims and those who are not Muslims, but we act nice to them so they don’t shoot us.👍
Trust me when I tell you my friend. I am very nice to these people. But I am not stupid. I extend one hand in friendship, and keep the other on my S.A.W. I know for a fact who I am dealing with, and what they are capable of. Peace 😉
 
What do you mean by “a good Muslim”? I gather that you don’t mean “a good person who is a Muslim.” You seem to mean “good by the standards of Islam.” But of course, only Muslims get to say what the standards of Islam are. And if one Muslim says that the standards are one thing, and another Muslim says that the standards are something else, there is no criterion whatever by which you and I can adjudicate the dispute.
Look like pretty much fence sitting, ain’t you?
Many Muslims today regard jihad either in a purely spiritualized sense or as a struggle for righteousness which may involve defensive warfare. It seems pretty clear that traditional Islamic law does not take that position.
Care to provide reference for this or is it purely your opinion?
 
I’m not sure what you mean by “muslims refuse to say there is abrogation.” I think you mean that Muslims do believe in abrogation. I know that this is a traditional doctrine–I also know that not all Muslims believe in it in the sense of abrogating the more “peaceful” passages by the more violent ones.
You and I understand it as abrogation. Muslims refuse to accept it as abrogation-their Quran tells them not to:

2.106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
You aren’t telling me anything I don’t know. None of this gives you the right to decide that Muslims who don’t interpret the Qur’an as you do are somehow “bad Muslims.”
A few selections. I know that there are all sorts of things in the hadith, and that different Muslims emphasize different aspects. Again, it makes no sense for an outsider to say that those Muslims who interpret the hadith otherwise than you do are not “real” or “good” or “full” Muslims.
In our case “bad” or secular muslim equals a good peaceful person. A “good” muslim equals taliban, alqaeda, etc.

Only telling you what true muslims are saying, but go find out for yourself. Study Islam.
Something, yes. I’m not sure what the phrase “Islam is an ideology” is even supposed to mean. How are you defining “ideology”?
A whole way of life- from political to how you dress, what you eat, which hand you shake hands with, which hand you clean yourself after defecating-everything.

Worse then Communism because an allah has been added.
I do know that modern fundamentalist Muslims do not follow traditional Islam in all respects, and that the ideology of militant Islam is a modern creation. I know that the people who study Islam full-time do not agree with your picture of Islam, and I am unpersuaded by the arguments presented by some attempting to show that people who study Islam for a living can’t be trusted.
I also know that while you speak of shari’a, you are ignoring the specifics of the law of jihad, which puts limits on warfare. You claim to know a lot about Islam, but I am unpersuaded.
Please understand that I’m not denying that there are some very disturbing and reprehensible things in Islam. I think Islam has more trouble overcoming its violent elements than Christianity does–and God knows we’ve had enough trouble with violence in Christianity. I do not buy the “religion of peace” rhetoric either. I am trying to look at the picture as fairly as possible.
Please do some more reading on the subject.

Muslims are only doing what Mohammad and the Quran condoned. The violent elements of Christianity were NEVER condoned by Jesus or the Gospel.

Please do not think I hate Muslims- they are caught in a death cult that condones killing them if they try to leave.
 
Schaick said-they are caught in a death cult that condones killing them if they try to leave.
ME- My friend, you do not know how right you are…Peace :signofcross:
 
Look like pretty much fence sitting, ain’t you?
I am attempting to speak the truth. Why are you introducing irrelevant epithets like “fence sitting” instead of discussing truth?
Care to provide reference for this or is it purely your opinion?
For which part? I have frequently encountered Muslims in person or in writing who either spiritualize jihad or consider it defensive. If you are questioning the fact that many Muslims take this view, I can find evidence. But schaick doesn’t seem to question that there are Muslims who interpret Islam this way–he just thinks that they are “bad Muslims.” That’s the point I’d like to focus on. If you seriously deny that such supposedly “bad Muslims” even exist, then I can try to find you that evidence when I have the leisure.

I presume that you aren’t disputing my claims about traditional views of jihad as offensive warfare against non-Muslim governments.

Edwin
 
You and I understand it as abrogation. Muslims refuse to accept it as abrogation-their Quran tells them not to:

2.106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
I understand the “but” there to have the meaning of “unless.” Another translation is “Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it.”

I may be wrong, but this is certainly a possible meaning held by many Muslims. I’m happy to hear that other Muslims reject abrogation. So much, again, for the claim that abrogation makes the “peaceful verses” irrelevant!
In our case “bad” or secular muslim equals a good peaceful person. A “good” muslim equals taliban, alqaeda, etc.
Says who? What gives you the right to make such an assertion?
Only telling you what true muslims are saying
Again, how do you distinguish between “true” and “false” Muslims? You seem to be saying that Muslims who agree with your interpretation of the Qur’an are true, while others are false. That seems both weird and arrogant to me.
A whole way of life- from political to how you dress, what you eat, which hand you shake hands with, which hand you clean yourself after defecating-everything.
Do you think that there are parts of life unaffected by Christianity?

The fact that Christianity is no longer seen as an “ideology” in this sense is one of the huge problems with modern Christianity. I don’t think that the secularization and privatization of Western Christendom is something of which to be proud, on the whole.

Now granted, we don’t have a comprehensive system of law in the way that Islam and Judaism do, and I think that’s a good thing.
Please do some more reading on the subject.
Please refrain from the rude and arrogant assumption that those who differ from you do so out of ignorance. Please answer my objections.
Muslims are only doing what Mohammad and the Quran condoned.
As interpreted by you. Clearly many Muslims disagree.
The violent elements of Christianity were NEVER condoned by Jesus or the Gospel.
As interpreted by you. Many Christians have historically disagreed, including saints and Doctors of the Catholic Church such as St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Thomas More.
Please do not think I hate Muslims- they are caught in a death cult that condones killing them if they try to leave.
I don’t think you hate Muslims. I think you are not thinking clearly or fairly about Islam. I am in no position to judge your motives, but I can easily believe that they are excellent ones. That doesn’t make your arguments correct. Your claim to discern what is “true Islam” or what a “good Muslim” is simply makes no sense, as I have shown above. You simply keep repeating that claim without substantiating it.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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