Where Has "Common Courtesy" Gone?

[JimG]

. . . Anyway, the respect and reverance shown by both the Clergy and laity in that Parish is identical to what I remember from my childhood and youth (pre- V II). Back then we went to Confession on a weekly basis, fasted from midnight the day before receiving Communion and knelt to receive it on the tongue. We were taught that only the Priest was allowed to touch the Host with his hands. The only contact with the Host that the laity was allowed was on their tongue.

In our Parish, every so often, a homeless person will come into the church during Mass and try to panhandle the congregation. I have seen the priest stop the Mass and order the person to stop and demand that they respect the presence of God. When there are no ushers, or only one, several men from the congregation will handle the situation, most often by gently escorting the miscreant from the church.

This is pretty much the same way I remember it from my own childhood. When entering a church, the instant you opened the door to go from the vestibule into the church, all conversation ceased! There was absolute quiet inside the church, whether you were entering before Mass or just visiting for prayer during the day.

When serving at the altar, it was emphasized to us that the sanctuary was holy ground, and every movement should show respect for Jesus in the tabernacle, which at that time was in the center of the altar. One never crossed in front of the tabernacle, whether during Mass, before Mass, after Mass, when setting up, or at any other time, without turning toward the tabernacle and genuflecting.

No one was allowed in the sanctuary except those who had business there, and that business had to be carried out with the utmost reverence. After Mass, no one talked until we were again outside in the vestibule.

My own parish retains a good sense of reverence even now, although there tends to be more talking than there would have been in the past. But I’ve been in some parishes where there’s not much difference between being in church and being at Walmart.

 

[Seeker1961]

This is pretty much the same way I remember it from my own childhood. When entering a church, the instant you opened the door to go from the vestibule into the church, all conversation ceased! There was absolute quiet inside the church, whether you were entering before Mass or just visiting for prayer during the day.

When serving at the altar, it was emphasized to us that the sanctuary was holy ground, and every movement should show respect for Jesus in the tabernacle, which at that time was in the center of the altar. One never crossed in front of the tabernacle, whether during Mass, before Mass, after Mass, when setting up, or at any other time, without turning toward the tabernacle and genuflecting.

No one was allowed in the sanctuary except those who had business there, and that business had to be carried out with the utmost reverence. After Mass, no one talked until we were again outside in the vestibule.

My own parish retains a good sense of reverence even now, although there tends to be more talking than there would have been in the past. But I’ve been in some parishes where there’s not much difference between being in church and being at Walmart.

That’s how I remember it too, and it wasn’t THAT long ago. Now the only place I have seen that level of respect and reverence was at the Tridentine parish I used to attend in NJ.

My new parish is designed the “old fashioned” way with the tabernacle in the center. One of the first weeks I went there I genuflected on the way to communion out of pure habit! Everyone else does the little bow, but I can’t break the habit. So far nobody has asked me to stop, so I’m going to keep doing it. As I said earlier, the new Pastor is very reverent, so maybe he likes it. (I hope)

 

[Exorcist]

As was mentioned earlier, this is an unfortunate shortcoming of our society and culture today, and it has reached into Church. Sadly, it was bound to happen.

When my sister and I were children, our parents often took us to nicer restaurants that were more suited for adults than families. Many times people would come over to our table and complement my parents for their “well behaved children” and my parents were proud of us and flattered to be acknowledged. That was almost 50 years ago.

I have offered complements to well behaved families myself, but it is not a typical occurrence. More often it seems the parents attitude is to just let the kids do whatever they want. And eventually, even good kids will find mischief if left to their own devices. So I look at the parents and question them.

I see this same dynamic in our “Mothers’ Chapel” when parents feel that it is an enclosed area and there are lots of families, so I will just let the kids run wild and it won’t bother anyone. But then there are families with kids that are quite reverent (age appropriate) with the parents guiding them.

So now I am wondering, is there much difference? Were my sister and I exceptions to the rule? IF we were not, then why complement us?

On the priest/leadership part of the equation, I tend to agree. However, we have a new (15 months) pastor who followed a 15 year pastor (retired and lives above the rectory garage).
We have a huge parish and there are bound to be those that like and dislike this and that, including the pastor. It’s kind of like the current political spectrum; there is such a divide, half the people are on one side, and the other half is the opposite. A tough situation for a leader. I think that is where prayer comes in especially helpful.

Society has ALWAYS had shortcomings but it was not allowed to seep into the Church at the same rate as it is today.

I want to make certain that no one thinks that I feel a loss of common courtesy based on approved options of the Mass. I’m talking about behavior that would be bad/rude anywhere.

I may not like guitars at Mass, but they are in no way prohibited. On the other hand I DETEST guitarists “tuning-up” right before and DURING Mass. That shows a total lack of common courtesy.

 

[Godfollower]

Society has ALWAYS had shortcomings but it was not allowed to seep into the Church at the same rate as it is today.

I want to make certain that no one thinks that I feel a loss of common courtesy based on approved options of the Mass. I’m talking about behavior that would be bad/rude anywhere.

I may not like guitars at Mass, but they are in no way prohibited. On the other hand I DETEST guitarists “tuning-up” right before and DURING Mass. That shows a total lack of common courtesy.

They have to tune up just before Mass. And often during Mass. Otherwise they’ll go out of tune.

Every time you play a stringed instrument of any type, the strings start to go out of tune. They have to be tuned just before any performance. That’s why the first thing you get before a concert is a horrible mess of sound as all the instrumentalists make sure they stay in tune.

The proper moment to make sure they’re all in tune is just before the Mass, so they’ll go as long as possible before needing to tune again. But, even if they do that, if they’re playing during the Mass and discover that one of their strings sounds “off,” they need to fix it. How? By tuning it.

For the same reason, you’ll often see brass and woodwind players blowing hot air into their instruments during Mass – even when (or especially when) they aren’t playing – so that the instruments stay warm and therefore in tune.

They aren’t being rude; they’re being professional. It’s no different than an organist occasionally being distracting by changing some of the stops before the next piece gets played (I’ve been in some churches where the stops were ridiculously loud).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I have a Polish friend who often speaks of how traditional Polish parishes are both in Poland and in the U.S.

It was my great privilege for several years to live a few miles away from the Polish seminary in Orchard Lake, Michigan. I always enjoyed interacting with the seminarians, instructors and faithful at public events and after an occasional weekday morning Mass. They always exhibited great warmth and love of the Lord. May God bless them abundantly!

 

[pnewton]

They have to tune up just before Mass. And often during Mass. Otherwise they’ll go out of tune.

Ah! a practical suggestion. Yes, they have to be tuned, but they do not have to be tuned out loud. There are many tuners that will do this with just the slightest of noise. If they tune by ear, it only has to be loud enough to travel to the ear a foot away. I always tune before Mass and no one hears.

Another practical suggest to the OP and others. One way of controlling volume is to whisper. Even a louder forced whisper tends to bring the volume down of those around. I will sometimes engage in conversation briefly with people being too unruly just to lower the level. It really works, except for one guy that’s kind of throwed off.

 

[jenwha]

Wow. I didn’t know people ever talked before or after Mass.

At my church the minute you enter the church from the moment people leave there is complete silence.

We have people with extremely casual clothes but it is dead silent.

 

[OraLabora]

There are 9 parishes in our pastoral unit. I’m only familiar with 3 of them as they’re all a 15 minute drive from me. At two of the three, the church is dead quiet before Mass, just the sound of people shuffling in. At the third one, it is mayhem. I can’t figure it out. The same pastor is responsible for all three parishes.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I can’t think of a parish around me that I’ve been to where you’ll find total silence. In fact, the quietest I tend to find is just shy of a noisy classroom. I had to leave one local church after Confession several weeks back because it was too loud for me to do my penance (considering it was only two Our Fathers, that’s saying something. We had Adoration a few months ago and despite Father’s reminder to everyone that it was a time for silent prayer, the deacon had to come out and tell all the talkers in the back to take their conversations to the parking lot.

 

[Godfollower]

Ah! a practical suggestion. Yes, they have to be tuned, but they do not have to be tuned out loud. There are many tuners that will do this with just the slightest of noise. If they tune by ear, it only has to be loud enough to travel to the ear a foot away. I always tune before Mass and no one hears.

Another practical suggest to the OP and others. One way of controlling volume is to whisper. Even a louder forced whisper tends to bring the volume down of those around. I will sometimes engage in conversation briefly with people being too unruly just to lower the level. It really works, except for one guy that’s kind of throwed off.

I agree it can be done more or less quietly. And perhaps the Elevation isn’t quite the best time to tone an instrument. Discretion is valuable here.

I’m just pointing out that tuning your instrument is not, as posited, “a total lack of common courtesy.”

 

[Exorcist]

They have to tune up just before Mass. And often during Mass. Otherwise they’ll go out of tune.

Every time you play a stringed instrument of any type, the strings start to go out of tune. They have to be tuned just before any performance. That’s why the first thing you get before a concert is a horrible mess of sound as all the instrumentalists make sure they stay in tune.

The proper moment to make sure they’re all in tune is just before the Mass, so they’ll go as long as possible before needing to tune again. But, even if they do that, if they’re playing during the Mass and discover that one of their strings sounds “off,” they need to fix it. How? By tuning it.

For the same reason, you’ll often see brass and woodwind players blowing hot air into their instruments during Mass – even when (or especially when) they aren’t playing – so that the instruments stay warm and therefore in tune.

They aren’t being rude; they’re being professional. It’s no different than an organist occasionally being distracting by changing some of the stops before the next piece gets played (I’ve been in some churches where the stops were ridiculously loud).

NO!

And if that actually was the case then guitars AREN’T suited for the Mass!

I remember a couple who played classic guitar for us at Mass. Their playing was…beautiful. I remember they would set everything up and then quietly carry their 4 guitars to an empty classroom to warm/tune-up. Then they returned. They NEVER tuned-up DURING Mass!

Sadly they moved. They were serious Catholics and they were aware just how inappropriate it would have been for them to tune-up while people were praying or God forbid during the Mass.

 

[Exorcist]

I agree it can be done more or less quietly. And perhaps the Elevation isn’t quite the best time to tone an instrument. Discretion is valuable here.

I’m just pointing out that tuning your instrument is not, as posited, “a total lack of common courtesy.”

It’s CRUDE behavior.

 

[pnewton]

NO!

And if that actually was the case then guitars AREN’T suited for the Mass!

Are you talking about doing this during Mass or before Mass? What happens before Mass has nothing to do with suitability. Again tuning need not be heard in the Church. It can be done quietly.

 

[Exorcist]

When/why did this downfall begin? I realize that many people will act poorly/entitled if there are no expectations placed upon them and then enforced.

But when/why did pastors and bishops begin to ignore the loss of common courtesy inside of their parishes churches? This is a very important question to me.

I am friends with an 85 year old retired priest. A good priest. I asked him about this one time as he was my pastor when things seemed to change (later 1960’s.) He said the talking in church was positive, that CONVIVIALITY is extremely important. I was sort of stunned when he said that.

He’s also the priest that now laments all the empty pew space at most Masses at my parish.

 

[odile53]

I can’t think of a parish around me that I’ve been to where you’ll find total silence. In fact, the quietest I tend to find is just shy of a noisy classroom. I had to leave one local church after Confession several weeks back because it was too loud for me to do my penance (considering it was only two Our Fathers, that’s saying something. We had Adoration a few months ago and despite Father’s reminder to everyone that it was a time for silent prayer, the deacon had to come out and tell all the talkers in the back to take their conversations to the parking lot.

That’s exactly opposite from what the ambience is like in the parish where I attend weekday Mass. Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament goes on from after the 7:30 AM Mass, is suspended during the 12 noon Mass, and continues through the afternoon till the 5 PM Mass. Confessions are held from 3:30 to just before the 5 PM Mass. Every day. About all you can hear is people shuffling in and out, the rattle of rosary beads, and some muffled whispering if you are near the active confessional. Even the few homeless people who tend to hang out in the back of the church are respectfully quiet (it is downtown and located a couple of blocks from a homeless shelter.) As a matter of fact, one of the homeless guys seems to have self-appointed as an official Adorer, and gives people the eye to see if they’re there for the purpose of prayer or to just hang out.

The biggest activity is at 3:30, when the priest arrives to hear confessions. It’s very gratifying to see about ten or fifteen people get out of their pews and line up for confession. Just before Holy Days, First Fridays, or Holy Week, the number triples easily, and the parish sends out an extra priest (it is run by a religious order.) At those times of the year, as my grandpa would say, the confession lines get so active that “you’d think they were giving away free cheese!”

Usually, I stop for Adoration and Mass after work, and since I’m a physical therapist nowadays, I’m wearing rubber-soled shoes. However, one weekday I had a “lunch date” with my husband (he is an over the road truck driver, and was passing through town.) I had gotten dressed up for the occasion.

Just imagine my mortification when I clicked into church on high heels on that terrazzo floor, making what sounded to me like a real racket! The “official” homeless Adorer gave me the stink-eye! After a couple of steps, I rose up higher on my toes to prevent the heels from making such noise!

 

[Exorcist]

Are you talking about doing this during Mass or before Mass? **What happens before Mass has nothing to do with suitability. ** Again tuning need not be heard in the Church. It can be done quietly.

Tuning a guitar inside of a church just prior to Mass while people are trying to prepare through prayer is resoundingly rude. It exhibits a total lack of common courtesy.

 

[pnewton]

Tuning a guitar inside of a church just prior to Mass while people are trying to prepare through prayer is resoundingly rude. It exhibits a total lack of common courtesy.

No it is not. No it does not. I bother no one. You are not there so your judgment in what I do is from ignorance, not knowledge. Yes, it can be done rudely, but it need not be.

I sense from this post that what you are railing against as neglect of common courtesty may not be universal.

 

[Exorcist]

No it is not. No it does not. I bother no one. You are not there so your judgment in what I do is from ignorance, not knowledge. Yes, it can be done rudely, but it need not be.

I sense from this post that what you are railing against as neglect of common courtesty may not be universal.

It’s horribly rude. You suggest you “bother no one.” It’s exactly that mindset that I am trying to figure out. How can you be so devoid of common courtesy? Any idea at all?

 

[pnewton]

It’s horribly rude. You suggest you “bother no one.” It’s exactly that mindset that I am trying to figure out. How can you be so devoid of common courtesy? Any idea at all?

I know it bothers no one, but you seem to be out looking for offense. I think it is extremely rude* of you* to accuse me of being devoid of common courtesy. If you can not post here with charity, I do not know how you can know what courtesty is, beam and speck and all. Perhaps if you seek courtesy, you should first be willing to give it.

 

[Georgia]

One of the things I found most impressive as I began looking at the Church was the sacred silence before Mass. That was something new to me, something powerful, and something so very moving. People were kneeling to pray and you could hear a pin drop. You could hear its echo too.

Those days seem to be gone.