Where has Esther 15:1 gone?

[Cranch]

Douay-Rheims Esther 15:1

“And he commanded her (no doubt but he was Mardochai) to go to the king, and petition for her people, and for her country.”

Am I missing something or is this verse gone from the NAB and RSV-CE 2nd ed.? I see the usefulness of interspersing the Greek with the Hebrew in these newer translations. The NAB execution of this leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. I prefer the presentation in the RSV-CE. Anyway, both take the Douay-Rheims verses Esther 15:2-3 and insert them in chapter 4 after verse 8. The RCV-CE doesn’t even identify where they were moved from, the NAB identifies them as 15:1-2 in it’s Esther introduction. Both later pick up the narrative from chapter 15 at Douay-Rheims verse 4. What happened to D-R verse 1??

Also does anyone (who has a copy) agree that to be consistent in presentation, the RSV-CE 2nd. ed. should number the Greek part at the beginning of Esther chapter 15 as verses 4-19 rather than 1-16?

 

[Verbum]

Hi Cranch,

I look in my Bible de Jérusalem, and I find that the verse you are looking for is now in chapter 4, verse 8:

He called upon the queen to go to the king and to implore his clemency and to plead the cause of the people to which she belonged.

Verbum

 

[Cranch]

Hi Verbum-

I don’t have a Jerusalem Bible so I can’t speak to what’s in it, but the trouble is The Douay-Rheims Esther in addition to the Greek 15:1 also already contains the Hebrew 4:8 -
*He gave him also a copy of the edict which was hanging up in Susan, that he should shew it to the queen, and admonish her to go in to the king, and to entreat him for her people.

*It is after this verse that the Greek insertions appear in the NAB and RSV-CE. I agree the verse you cite seems closer to D-R Esther 15-1 than D-R Esther 4:8, but then where is the original Hebrew 4:8 in the JB? (Hey! I’m getting side-tracked!)

 

[Liberian]

Cranch,

Pardon my confusion, but my NAB doesn’t even have an Esther chapter 15. It goes up to Chapter 10 and also has A-F. Something is extremely fishy here.

• Liberian

 

[Todd_Easton]

In 1954 edition of A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, edited by Bernard Orchard, it says, on page 408, in part:

There are two widely differing edtions of the book of Esther, the Greek and the Hebrew. They differ frequently in detail, and notably in length, the Greek containing a number of passages lacking in the Hebrew. In the Vulgate, St Jerome gather all these [Greek only] passages and placed them, freely translated into Latin, at the end (after 10:3) of his word-for-word translation of the Hebrew, indicating the places in the book where they were found. The Douay-Rheims follows St Jerome’s order, but gives no indication of the place of the passages in the Greek. The passages, seven in number, are as follows in the order of the Greek: (1) Prologue, the dream of Mardochai, and his discovery of the conspiracy, 11:2-12:6, before 1:1. (2) Decree of Assuerus ordering the massacre of the Jews, 13:1-7, after 3:13. (3) Mardochai’s exhortation to Esther, 15:1-3, after 4:8. (4) Prayers of Mardochai and Esther, 13:8-14:19, after 4:17. (5) Visit of Esther to Assuerus, 15:4-19, after 5:2. (6) Decree of Assuerus in favour of the Jews, 16:1-24, after 8:12. (7) Interpretation of the dream, 10:4-13, after 10:3. A note on the introduction of the book into Egypt is added in 11:1.

In the Haydock’s Catholic Bible commentary on Esther 15:1, it says that the parenthesis was added by St. Jerome. If I understand that correctly, 15:1 should actually read, “And he commanded her to go to the king, and petition for her people, and for her country,” which is pretty much a repetition of the last part of 4:8.

 

[Cranch]

Liberian-

The Greek passages of Esther (chapters11-16 in the Douay-Rheims) are the A-F chapters in the NAB. The beginning of chapter 15 appears in the NAB in Chapter 4 after verse 8. The rest of chapter 15 is Chapter D. In my NAB study bible this confusing scheme is spelled out in the Esther introduction.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Cranch,

Pardon my confusion, but my NAB doesn’t even have an Esther chapter 15. It goes up to Chapter 10 and also has A-F. Something is extremely fishy here.

• Liberian

Liberian, chapters and verses are a tradition (small “t”) added many centuries after the canon of the Bible was defined. Nothing fishy at all. Even some books are named differently in the Douay-Rheims than compared to modern day translations such as the NAB and RSV. Verses in the DRB are bundled together to make less verses than in some modern day Bibles.

I really like my Jerusalem Bible because you can read the whole thing without looking at the verse numbers if you want to (the verse numbers are on the left hand side of the page, or on the right) and out of the way of the text. Sometimes verses confuse the true intent of the passage and make it easier to pick and choose than to get the whole message in context.

 

[Cranch]

In 1954 edition of A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, edited by Bernard Orchard, it says, on page 408, in part**:
…****these [Greek only] passages…**seven in number, are as follows in the order of the Greek: (1) Prologue, the dream of Mardochai, and his discovery of the conspiracy, 11:2-12:6, before 1:1. (2) Decree of Assuerus ordering the massacre of the Jews, 13:1-7, after 3:13. (3) Mardochai’s exhortation to Esther, 15:1-3, after 4:8…

Todd-
Here it spells out Esther 15:1-3 should be after 4:8. My point is it seems in the NAB and RSV-CE2 only 15:2-3 appear after 4:8. Unless I’m reading them wrong, 15:1 seems simply to have been dropped! Granted that 15:1 and 4:8 are parallel in meaning but does that justify cutting 15:1? They both appear in the Douay-Rheims. Isn’t there an injunction against adding to or removing scripture? I’m trying to confirm my take on this specific situation. Does anyone out there see it the same way I do or am I nuts?

 

[Todd_Easton]

Todd-
Here it spells out Esther 15:1-3 should be after 4:8. My point is it seems in the NAB and RSV-CE2 only 15:2-3 appear after 4:8. Unless I’m reading them wrong, 15:1 seems simply to have been dropped! Granted that 15:1 and 4:8 are parallel in meaning but does that justify cutting 15:1? They both appear in the Douay-Rheims. Isn’t there an injunction against adding to or removing scripture? I’m trying to confirm my take on this specific situation. Does anyone out there see it the same way I do or am I nuts?

It appears that 15:1 is not an entirely distinct verse but merely a longer, alternate ending of 4:8 that was found in the Greek text. With St. Jerome’s parenthetical remarks removed this is pretty easy to see. The only significant difference between the ending of 4:8 and 15:1 is the phrase at the end, “and for her country.”

Esther 4:8 (Hebrew source) reads: “…and [he] admonished her to go in to the king, and to entreat him for her people.”

Esther 15:1 (Greek source) reads: “And he commanded her to go [in] to the king, and [to] petition [him] for her people, and for her country.”