Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

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So the truth is that it is freemasonry which is apostate. They lifted rituals out of solomon’s temple. Joseph knew it was apostate as well.
That brings up an interesting question:

If Joseph Smith knew that freemasonry was apostate, why did he join it and become a master mason? Certainly it was not so that he could learn the ceremony and borrow from it to create the endowment? So why did he join the apostate masons?

Could it be that Joseph did not know that freemasonry was apostate?

For that matter, why did he attempt to join the apostate Methodists after he was told in his “first vision” to join none of the churches, for they were all wrong? The only reason he did not become a Methodist was that the Methodists rejected him as a “person of low character”, which he certainly was.

Could it be that the “first vision” story was concocted long after the time Joseph claimed it occurred?
 

First lie.
As I have said before, freemasonry derives from solomon’s temple. Masonic lore says so. I have my Albert Pike Morals and Dogma
sittting right here on my desk. Man, that guy was UGLY.
So mr mason, what does the checkered floor symbolize?
I can’t talk about to you, it is a “SECRET.”
Freemasonry does not derive from King Solomon’s Temple. This legend is a masonic construct to lend ligitimacy to the Order.
So the truth is that it is freemasonry which is apostate. They lifted rituals out of solomon’s temple. Joseph knew it was apostate as well.
Then why did JS enter freemasonry and why was he so enamored of it that he stole the Blue Lodge ritual and called it the "endowment. This means that the mormon “endowment” is itself “apostate.”
I will discuss this no further. Period. Bring it up if you like, but it will be all fantasy on your part because I will not participate.
Questions got too tough for you, eh Ski?
[/QUOTE]
 
**mfbukowski, re: post 187 **(for some reason it’s not letting me insert your post into this edit):

So when Zerinus and I had a somewhat lengthly discussion a while back on the BoM’s claims regarding the languages of ancient America, his assertions were not those of a Mormon? Well, I guess then you DO have a point. Otherwise, I don’t see what you’re getting at. I argued against Zerinus, I argued against the Mormon apologetic videos whyme posted…I’ve done nothing but argue using LDS sources and the posts of LDS members. I took nothing from anti-Mormon sources. Your assertion does not work because these are not anti-Mormon sources, so presumably, we can rely on them as accurate descriptions of what Mormons DO believe.

And they’re STILL WRONG.

Is that enough of an answer for you? Go ahead and search for the posts/threads in question if you wish. The Mormon apologetics video thread was titled something like “Mormon apologetics videos” (:eek:)…I can’t exactly remember what the thread Zerinus and I had the “reformed Egyptian” discussion in was called, but maybe he can find it and tell you how evil I am in it…
 
This is the issue I am discussing. We have been through all the others a million times, and all they are is a smokescreen to cover that NO ONE has responded to this quoted post.

Prodigalson1 is particularly good at smokescreens, and usually attacks in a different area when I have made a point which makes him squirm.

Discuss what you want, but I am discussing only this post, #187 until I get an answer.
I’ll bite. But you won’t LISTEN to me because I’m an ex-Mormon and therefore have some hidden agenda against you.
I did “get it” for way too many years until the blinders were lifted from my eyes. In Utah County while I was growing up there wasn’t a whole lot of anything other than Mormonism… I did truly try to believe.
Now I don’t. I have studied myself out of Mormonism. I left it behind and now I’m a Catholic. I don’t truly listen to a Mormon who comes on here and “defends” Mormonism because I know better… been there… done that. I remember the arguments. I remember the mindset. It just doesn’t cut it any longer now that I know the truth.

in Christ
Steph
 
If you have to go hundreds of times in order to understand a caricature of the masonic ritual, you are indeed very thick. Your “prophet” certainly must not have been paying attention for all those years if he could not understand the first three degrees of Blue Lodge Freemasonry. That or he was, like the vast majority of mormons, in extreme denial. And BTW, we are not here to convert anyone, unlike mormons who come here in an attempt to proselytise, but instead to lay out the unvarnished fact about catholicism and let the informed inquirer make up his own mind. We do not lie to the inquirer, unlike mormons.
 
Originally Posted by zerinus
What has Mormonism done to your family?—apart from making them Mormons—LOL!
Oh, please let me answer. When my daughter became Mormon, she separated herself from us in a most hurtful way. So you could say that that “family-first oriented organization” effectively caused great harm and divided our family while talking a good talk by saying that they are family-friendly.

Sorry. Feel a bit hurt for my husband. Today is his birthday, but you know my Mormon daughter can’t even pick up the phone to wish her own father “Happy Birthday”. (And yes, he was hoping that this morning…Well, morning is over.) What a two-faced religion–to tell everyone that they are family oriented and then turn around and treat family poorly!
 
no need for warpaint. you have proven the case for most of us. mormons either don’t know their doctrine (a common problem for all religions) OR diagree with parts of it and become “cafeteria” members ( same as above) OR they mislead publicly as part of the milk before meat approach.

Those of us who WERE mormons have no need of caricatures. we find them counterproductive as the truth is far more effective.

The truth is that zerinus support the LoF nature of God and your portrayal here are NOT LDS doctrine. Eternal progression is not and never was “quasi-doctrinal” (whaetver that’s supposed to mean) it is taught today as evidenced by the LDS website.

Catholics have no need ot ask these questions (red herrings) you toss out there. we know the answer. God is eternally God.

The Temple symbolism? it’s not nearly as esoteric or profound as you try to make it sound. I can easily tell you what all of the symbols mean and you can verify them with you r temple president when you go next if you are really interested. why do you think there aren’t any temple classes in the temple where supposedly you CAN discuss these things? because it’s the emperors new clothes.
There ARE temple classes. Ever been to a chapel session? Ever been trained as a worker?
 
Oh, please let me answer. When my daughter became Mormon, she separated herself from us in a most hurtful way. So you could say that that “family-first oriented organization” effectively caused great harm and divided our family while talking a good talk by saying that they are family-friendly.
Sorry. Feel a bit hurt for my husband. Today is his birthday, but you know my Mormon daughter can’t even pick up the phone to wish her own father “Happy Birthday”. (And yes, he was hoping that this morning…Well, morning is over.) What a two-faced religion–to tell everyone that they are family oriented and then turn around and treat family poorly!
There you have it in a nutshell. I wish your husband a very happy birthday and I am sure that all the catholics on this forum do the same. mormonism has much to be ashamed of and alienating your kids is just one of them. Happy Birthday!!!:):):)🙂
 
no need for warpaint. you have proven the case for most of us. mormons either don’t know their doctrine (a common problem for all religions) OR diagree with parts of it and become “cafeteria” members ( same as above) OR they mislead publicly as part of the milk before meat approach.

Those of us who WERE mormons have no need of caricatures. we find them counterproductive as the truth is far more effective.

The truth is that zerinus support the LoF nature of God and your portrayal here are NOT LDS doctrine. Eternal progression is not and never was “quasi-doctrinal” (whaetver that’s supposed to mean) it is taught today as evidenced by the LDS website.

Catholics have no need ot ask these questions (red herrings) you toss out there. we know the answer. God is eternally God.

The Temple symbolism? it’s not nearly as esoteric or profound as you try to make it sound. I can easily tell you what all of the symbols mean and you can verify them with you r temple president when you go next if you are really interested. why do you think there aren’t any temple classes in the temple where supposedly you CAN discuss these things? because it’s the emperors new clothes.
#187
 
Oh, please let me answer. When my daughter became Mormon, she separated herself from us in a most hurtful way. So you could say that that “family-first oriented organization” effectively caused great harm and divided our family while talking a good talk by saying that they are family-friendly.

Sorry. Feel a bit hurt for my husband. Today is his birthday, but you know my Mormon daughter can’t even pick up the phone to wish her own father “Happy Birthday”. (And yes, he was hoping that this morning…Well, morning is over.) What a two-faced religion–to tell everyone that they are family oriented and then turn around and treat family poorly!
My guess is that you are the ones who have “separated yourselves” from her. She would not have “separated herself” from you of her own accord; neither does her Church encourage her to do so. Sorry, I can’t believe what you say.

zerinus
 
That brings up an interesting question:
If Joseph Smith knew that freemasonry was apostate, why did he join it and become a master mason? Certainly it was not so that he could learn the ceremony and borrow from it to create the endowment? So why did he join the apostate masons?
What about this one, Ski? Does this square with the truth? If no answer, we’ll assume it to be true.
 
I think I’ll throw this one out to the feeding frenzy and see what kind of bites I get.

When you get your information about what Mormons believe from anti-mormons, what you get is cartoonish caricatures of what we believe, and when we DO explain what we do believe, no one listens long enough here to GET it. And of course you don’t want to GET it because we might be right.
What is there to GET? You act like we were never Mormon. Some have not been, but there are many of us who were.

We GET it, that is why we left.
Then everybody has fun making fun of the caricatures, and you all get to think that you have “refuted” something, and you all dance around in war paint and whoop it up.
Let’s try to be reasonable one more time. I don’t know why I am such an optimist, but here goes.
There isn’t much else you can do with Mormon “theology” about a false god. It is all so illogical and convoluted and just plain WRONG.

If you want to believe that it has some cosmic importance, go right ahead. But we do not believe that it means anything.
Let’s just look at how Mormons view God.
We believe that there is one “God” who is infinite and eternal.
Mormonism has redefined what “infinite” and “eternal” mean. Which, definitions describe nothing that is neither infinite or eternal.
“God” is like a family of three persons who are perfectly united in purpose. Talk to one, you talk to all. They are one.
A family is comprised of separate individuals who are not one in being.
Each person who is part of the three is in some sense “God” as well. Jesus is God, and he is a member of the “Godhead”
When did Jesus become a God?
So you could easily caricature this belief as “polytheism”
“Mormons believe in 3 Gods ha ha”
Or easily caricature it as one God. It is no caricature on our part.
But that statement would be neither true nor accurate.
It is true and accurate.
Mormons also SPECULATE on things that never occurr to most people. What happened before the Big Bang? How could we know that? Science cannot prove anything about that. Time began at the big bang. So to discuss what happened “before” time makes no sense. It is an object of faith.
It is my personal belief, not doctrinal, that God in some sense caused the big bang.
That means that somehow, he existed before time.
But why did he cause the big bang? Why did he make the world?
These are all clearly faith based questions which no one can “prove” the answers to.
We don’t speculate about such things. It is doctrinal to us. A being, God, who is infinite and eternal logically exists outside of time.

One thing we know about God, that He has Revealed, is that He is the Creator of all things. This includes time and space.

Mormonism limits God. That limitation begins as soon as you state He is created.
One of the theories put forward is the quasi-doctrinal belief of Mormons that God himself was once as we are now. Before time, before creation, before anything that we can ever in principle know or understand. Perhaps it was in another universe, dimension or whatever-- we cannot in principle KNOW this in any scientific sense. We can know it by revelation, however.
Quasi-doctrinal? Come now. It is doctrine. Or WAS doctrine. When I was a Mormon this was neither a guess or speculation it was presented as Truth.
Catholicism doesn’t even ask the question “What was God doing floating around for eternity before he created us?”
And you complain of caricatures. What do you call that ^ What god is this that you believe in that is “floating around”?
We answer the questions Catholicism doesn’t even ask.
It is an irrelevant question.
But people who don’t understand now take this and say “Mormons are polytheists, who believe in life on other planets”
If that is your level of understanding of what I have explained, then so be it. It is a total caricature.
You have only explained your level of understanding. We can talk to any other Mormon and get a different explanation. Including those that completely believe and understand the Mormon doctrine of your god was once a man.
And if you think for a second that you understand the symbolism of the temple, think again.
Honestly, I just don’t care. I don’t need to understand a Freemason rite that has nothing to do with God.
So where’s the warpaint?
So commence with your whitewashing.
 
My guess is that you are the ones who have “separated yourselves” from her. She would not have “separated herself” from you of her own accord; neither does her Church encourage her to do so. Sorry, I can’t believe what you say.
zerinus, you do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. You do not know these people or their situation. Your comment exceeds your usual Chutzpah. Shame on you.
 
I posted a response to you. Maybe you didn’t see it. 🙂 This thread has been busy.
Your argument is:

“I don’t care about Mormon doctrine, because there was no apostasy, so Mormonism is false.”

We have discussed this ad nauseum on other threads which no longer exist. Maybe we can get back to it one day, but for now I am waiting for replies to #187.
 
There ARE temple classes. Ever been to a chapel session? Ever been trained as a worker?
yes to both and you know that’s not what i meant.

where is the interactive session with a doctrinally defined set of answers to the actual endowment? everyone gets instructed to let the spirit do the teaching. people keep going to try and learn some deep meaning that simply isn’t there.
 
That brings up an interesting question:

If Joseph Smith knew that freemasonry was apostate, why did he join it and become a master mason? Certainly it was not so that he could learn the ceremony and borrow from it to create the endowment? So why did he join the apostate masons?

Could it be that Joseph did not know that freemasonry was apostate?

For that matter, why did he attempt to join the apostate Methodists after he was told in his “first vision” to join none of the churches, for they were all wrong? The only reason he did not become a Methodist was that the Methodists rejected him as a “person of low character”, which he certainly was.

Could it be that the “first vision” story was concocted long after the time Joseph claimed it occurred?
If Joseph was such a good mason, why did they kill him?

#187
 
**mfbukowski, re: post 187 **(for some reason it’s not letting me insert your post into this edit):

So when Zerinus and I had a somewhat lengthly discussion a while back on the BoM’s claims regarding the languages of ancient America, his assertions were not those of a Mormon? Well, I guess then you DO have a point. Otherwise, I don’t see what you’re getting at. I argued against Zerinus, I argued against the Mormon apologetic videos whyme posted…I’ve done nothing but argue using LDS sources and the posts of LDS members. I took nothing from anti-Mormon sources. Your assertion does not work because these are not anti-Mormon sources, so presumably, we can rely on them as accurate descriptions of what Mormons DO believe.

And they’re STILL WRONG.

Is that enough of an answer for you? Go ahead and search for the posts/threads in question if you wish. The Mormon apologetics video thread was titled something like “Mormon apologetics videos” (:eek:)…I can’t exactly remember what the thread Zerinus and I had the “reformed Egyptian” discussion in was called, but maybe he can find it and tell you how evil I am in it…
I don’t know what you are talking about, and this really has nothing to do with the Mormon conception of God which has been misportrayed as “polytheistic”
 
I’ll bite. But you won’t LISTEN to me because I’m an ex-Mormon and therefore have some hidden agenda against you.
I did “get it” for way too many years until the blinders were lifted from my eyes. In Utah County while I was growing up there wasn’t a whole lot of anything other than Mormonism… I did truly try to believe.
Now I don’t. I have studied myself out of Mormonism. I left it behind and now I’m a Catholic. I don’t truly listen to a Mormon who comes on here and “defends” Mormonism because I know better… been there… done that. I remember the arguments. I remember the mindset. It just doesn’t cut it any longer now that I know the truth.

in Christ
Steph
You have answered nothing
 
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