Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ha, good one! Accuse the other pope of being the apostate!

Look, I’ll agree that the two of you are “not in full communion”. Check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity and you’ll see that there’s a lot of cracks in the church roof. The Assyrian Church and Oriental Orthodoxy emerged before the “Great Schism” in the 11th century when the Roman Catholic church was founded. By a pope. Not a prophet. Jesus did not start the Roman Catholic church and he never called a pope. He called Apostles.

After the Eastern Orthodoxy, there were still all sorts of schisms. The Eastern Rites was formed and the Western Rites (Roman Catholics) again split during the reformation when all the Protestant churches formed. Last were the Restorationists which sounds like the LDS church and their followers.

Look, I don’t care if you guys think you’re the One and Only True Church and are favoured by God himself. Most people believe that about their church. But it really annoys me when people cut down our prophets and insult Joseph Smith all the while hiding behind their “Well, Jesus started our church!” veil. It’s about time I lifted that veil. You’re just another church that was started by a man and is currently headed by a man.

Mormon Denominations

**After the Succession Crisis which followed Joseph Smith’s murder in 1844, a number of competing hierarchies were organized that fall into the two main branches of the movement, sometimes called the “Prairie Saints” and the “Rocky Mountain Saints.”

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.
**

Church of Christ Temple Lot

**Reluctantly, we admit there has been apostasy from the restored gospel faith, through the introduction of human doctrine and by divisions having occured.
**

 

[twosweetgirls]

What I don’t understand about the whole “burning in the bosom” Mormon testimony thing is how do they reconcile it with verses in the Bible like Jeremiah 17:9 where we are told not to depend on such things?

They don’t. It’s called heartburn.

 

[RC_Matt]

After the Eastern Orthodoxy, there were still all sorts of schisms. The Eastern Rites was formed and the Western Rites (Roman Catholics) again split during the reformation when all the Protestant churches formed. Last were the Restorationists which sounds like the LDS church and their followers.

Look, I don’t care if you guys think you’re the One and Only True Church and are favoured by God himself. Most people believe that about their church. But it really annoys me when people cut down our prophets and insult Joseph Smith all the while hiding behind their “Well, Jesus started our church!” veil. It’s about time I lifted that veil. You’re just another church that was started by a man and is currently headed by a man.

Regardless of how you wish to define who came first, Catholic and Orthodox dogmata are very close and patently reflect a common origin. Mormonism is an altogether different religion, like Buddhism or Hinduism, and that fact is acknowledged by ALL Christian faiths.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Mormons must believe that non-members can feel the spirit, or no one would ever be converted. You have to feel the spirit while you are not Mormon, or no one would have a testimony.

But LDS don’t really believe that people who don’t convert ever truly felt the Spirit.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Speaking of abacadabra, mr latin scholar, did you know that “hocus pocus” comes from “hoc est enim corpus meum”?

That’s speculation not fact.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Our Mormon friend “ski” has tried to claim that the Catholic Church was not founded by the Lord. He claims that the Eastern Orthodox Church was. He also claims that the Eastern Catholic Churches were just “made up” with the Reformation. And of course, he throws in that old "the Church Jesus founded had Apostles–there is no mention of Pope.

ski–surely you knew that the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox share the same history (same Councils, same Fathers of the Church, same miracles) up until the schism. And our first Bishop of Rome, our first leader was in fact none other than Peter who was chosen by none other than Jesus in Matthew 16:18. Go ahead. Ask, if you must. (Why not bypass Wikipedia–I’ve heard that it isn’t all that reliable–and read the early Church Fathers. You’ll find the same names and all–both Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox have apostolic succession and have maintained it over the centuries.)

As to the Eastern Catholic Rites, they are onewith the Latin (Roman) Rite (yep–the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian and Chaldean major Rites.) Same Sacraments (although they call them “mysteries”–same early history, and the concepts are the same–just different language and customs, plus it truly is as Jesus intended–when Jesus told Peter to strengthen his brothers–the heads are Patriarchs in their own right they are under the umbrella of the Bishop of Rome–the successor of Peter.

And since you tried to show that there were so many “cracks” and tried to imply that the Eastern Catholic Rites and the Roman Latin) Rite aren’t one, I decided to list it out when they resumed communion. Now although having originally separated with the Eastern Orthodox–of the Alexandrian Rite (called the Liurgy of St. Mark), the Copts (in 1741) and Ehtiopians (in 1846); of the Antiochene Rite (Liturgy of Apostle James), the Malankarese (in 1930), the Maronites never separated,and the Syrians (in 1781); of the Armenian Rite (Liturgy of St. Basil), the Armenians (during the Crusades); of the Byzantine Rite (Based on Rite of James of Jerusalem), the Albanians (in 1628), the Bulgarians (in 1861), the Byelorussians also known as White Russians (in the 17th century), the Georgians (in 1861), the Greeks (in 1829), the Hungarians (in 1646), the Italo-Albanians never separated, the Melkites (basically resumed communion during Crusades, but definitive reunion was not until the 18th century), Romanians (in 1697), Russians (about 1905), Ruthenians or Carpatho-Russians (about 1596-1646), Slovaks, Ukrainians or Galician Ruthenians (in 1595) Yugoslavs, Serbs, and Croatians (in 1611); of the Chaldean Rite, The Chaldeans (Descendants of Nestorians–they resumed communion in 1692), the Syro-Malabaresese (descended from the Apostle Thomas).

statistics taken from Almanac

Some may be wondering why I know this. Well, on reason is that I have a friend who is Byzantine Catholic and the other reason is that I have attended Divine Liturgy (different words used for what Latin Rite Catholics call Mass) at a Ruthenian Eastern Rite Catholic church near me.

The Catholic Church is not just another “man-made” religion (unless you want to consider Jesus being “just a man”). I’ve heard that charge made early in my journey with Mormons and I had no idea what it meant. Now I know. You guys haven’t done your homework and are hoping that there are some who are gullible enough to believe the charge!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Speaking of abacadabra, mr latin scholar, did you know that “hocus pocus” comes from “hoc est enim corpus meum”?

Isn’t abracadabra something a “magician” says right before pulling something out of a hat? Some slight of hand people have pulled much more than a rabbit out of theirs.

 

[hosemonkey]

Isn’t abracadabra something a “magician” says right before pulling something out of a hat? Some slight of hand people have pulled much more than a rabbit out of theirs.

Didn’t ol’ Joe Smith pull an entire “religion” out of his hat?

 

[Matariel]

Ha, good one! Accuse the other pope of being the apostate!

Um… the Eastern Orthodox don’t have a pope. Your knowledge of them is just as defective as your ecclesiastical history.

…After the Eastern Orthodoxy, there were still all sorts of schisms. The Eastern Rites was formed and the Western Rites (Roman Catholics) again split … were the Restorationists which sounds like the LDS church and their followers.

Tsk, tsk. Must a nineteen-year-old teach you history? You must’ve played hookie during that class.

The Eastern Orthodox churches broke off from the Catholic Church in 1472 when the Greek bishops nullified the Ferrara-Florence Act of Union at a synod in Constantinople. Prior to that, EO’s were Catholic Christians, and under the Pope and the Catholic Church.

%between%

Get your facts straight before you fling misguided statements around (they betray your lack of knowledge of the holy Church and her history, which began with the Apostles themselves.)

 

[mfbukowski]

Our Mormon friend “ski” has tried to claim that the Catholic Church was not founded by the Lord. He claims that the Eastern Orthodox Church was. He also claims that the Eastern Catholic Churches were just “made up” with the Reformation. And of course, he throws in that old "the Church Jesus founded had Apostles–there is no mention of Pope.

I dont know where you are getting this stuff

Show me the posts.

I think the catholic church is apostate, as is the orthodox church. I think that if you take a combination of all the doctrines of both churches, you get a close approximation of MOST of the original doctrines of christianity, which of course, I believe is the same as the doctrine of the Church of JCLDS

I never said the eastern catholic churches were made up at the reformation. I actually don’t know where they came from, and frankly don’t much care.

The church Jesus founded DID have apostles, and there was no mention of a pope.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I dont know where you are getting this stuff

Show me the posts.

I think the catholic church is apostate, as is the orthodox church. I think that if you take a combination of all the doctrines of both churches, you get a close approximation of MOST of the original doctrines of christianity, which of course, I believe is the same as the doctrine of the Church of JCLDS

I never said the eastern catholic churches were made up at the reformation. I actually don’t know where they came from, and frankly don’t much care.

The church Jesus founded DID have apostles, and there was no mention of a pope.

I know the lds church is a load of B.S. I know that if you take early 19th century protestantism, you get a close approximation of the original doctrines of Christianity, which of course, is added to with a bit of American folk magic, freemasonry, plagiarism of the Bible, a few other books, and a good does of con man.

The church Jesus founded exists, fully, and completely, in the catholic churches, including those in schism as they are valid apostolic churches.

unlike mormonism, that is nothing but a glued up mismatch of nothing

 

[Matariel]

I think the catholic church is apostate, as is the orthodox church…

And the Mormon church cannot be apostate, because it was never Christian in the first place.

The church Jesus founded DID have apostles, and there was no mention of a pope.

There were no mentions of “Presidents” either. Don’t you Mormons have presidents?

Besides, to be an Apostle, one must’ve been an eye-witness to Jesus Christ, like St. Paul. The so-called Mormon "apostles’ haven’t. Go figure.

the title “Pope” wasn’t used until much later; all the same, it doesn’t matter. The Office of the Bishop of Rome as universal head of the Catholic Church founded by Christ was around way before the title of “Pope” (meaning Father) was attributed to it. As a matter of fact, the Apostle Peter was the first Bishop of Rome!

 

[hosemonkey]

I dont know where you are getting this stuff

Show me the posts.

BS

I never said the eastern catholic churches were made up at the reformation. I actually don’t know where they came from, and frankly don’t much care.

The church Jesus founded DID have apostles, and there was no mention of a pope.

The mormon “apologetics” ship is beginning to lose way, the sails are tattered and the rudder is shot away. They are drifting onto the rocks of irrellevancy, and the crew is jumping ship. The captain has hauled down the jolly roger and the Catholic heroes are swarming over the rail. The mormon crew will all be clapped in irons and the captain will be hung at Execution Dock. Such is the fate of all pirates who dare to threaten the Barque of Peter. Ski, just thought I’d spin a little nautical tale for ya. It’s a true story though matey.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Matariel]

The mormon “apologetics” ship is beginning to lose way, the sails are tattered and the rudder is shot away. They are drifting onto the rocks of irrellevancy, and the crew is jumping ship. The captain has hauled down the jolly roger and the Catholic heroes are swarming over the rail. The mormon crew will all be clapped in irons and the captain will be hung at Execution Dock. Such is the fate of all pirates who dare to threaten the Barque of Peter. Ski, just thought I’d spin a little nautical tale for ya. It’s a true story though matey.

True indeed… :coffeeread:

The Barque of Saint Peter sails even to the end of time.

 

[mfbukowski]

Mormon Denominations

**After the Succession Crisis which followed Joseph Smith’s murder in 1844, a number of competing hierarchies were organized that fall into the two main branches of the movement, sometimes called the “Prairie Saints” and the “Rocky Mountain Saints.”

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.
**

Church of Christ Temple Lot

**Reluctantly, we admit there has been apostasy from the restored gospel faith, through the introduction of human doctrine and by divisions having occured.
**

That’s a lot of effort for no effect. What’s your point? That our chuch is not true because we have apostate groups?

Have you ever heard of “protestants”?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That’s a lot of effort for no effect. What’s your point? That our chuch is not true because we have apostate groups?

Have you ever heard of “protestants”?

It was a glass house demonstration for rmcmullan. Mormons come here and speak about splits and I find it ironic when Mormons are split and call each other apostate Churches.

Yes, I’ve heard of Protestants. Mormons are more in a way a split from Protestantism with the influences of Joseph Smith’s evangelical mother had on him in his early life.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Show me the posts.
.

Does post #493 ring a bell?

Oh, you did note the 6 Rites of the one Catholic Church all under the successor of Peter–the Latin Rite in Rome–the Alexandrian Rite (called the Liturgy of St. Mark), the Antiochen Rite (originally traced to the Liturgy of St James of Jerusalem), the Armenian Rite (Greek Liturgy of St. Basil), the Byzantine Rite (based on the Rite of St. James of Jerusalem and some churches of Antioch), and the Chaldean Rite (we find descendants of the Nestorians in this Rite and also descended from the Apostle Thomas? And you did note that some of the communities never split with the successor of Peter–they were always Catholic? (That the Eastern Orthodox still calls them the perjorative term “Uniate” always bothered me.)

Oh, BTW, in your post #493, you implied that Protestants are really Catholics. Puleeze. We don’t even have the same Sacraments and teachings–and you know as well as I do, that they are not under the successor of Peter. (I ought to know, over half my family are various forms of Protestants. In fact, that’s how I got my copy of the KJV–that my convert to Mormonism daughter coveted so.)

When I think how bereft my daughter and grandchildren are of their rich Catholic heritage (because of the delusions of JS) I could just cry.

 

[mfbukowski]

Does post #493 ring a bell?

Oh, you did note the 6 Rites of the one Catholic Church all under the successor of Peter–the Latin Rite in Rome–the Alexandrian Rite (called the Liturgy of St. Mark), the Antiochen Rite (originally traced to the Liturgy of St James of Jerusalem), the Armenian Rite (Greek Liturgy of St. Basil), the Byzantine Rite (based on the Rite of St. James of Jerusalem and some churches of Antioch), and the Chaldean Rite (we find descendants of the Nestorians in this Rite and also descended from the Apostle Thomas? And you did note that some of the communities never split with the successor of Peter–they were always Catholic? (That the Eastern Orthodox still calls them the perjorative term “Uniate” always bothered me.)

Oh, BTW, in your post #493, you implied that Protestants are really Catholics. Puleeze. We don’t even have the same Sacraments and teachings–and you know as well as I do, that they are not under the successor of Peter. (I ought to know, over half my family are various forms of Protestants. In fact, that’s how I got my copy of the KJV–that my convert to Mormonism daughter coveted so.)

When I think how bereft my daughter and grandchildren are of their rich Catholic heritage (because of the delusions of JS) I could just cry.

I didn’t even write post #493.

 

[AMDGtoo]

I didn’t even write post #493.

I am sorry that I mistakenly attributed post #493–written by your “cohort” rmcmullan–to you. Must be because the post referenced my post #452 to you.

However my last two posts do answer the familiar accusation by Mormons that the Catholic Church is just “another manmade Church” and was not founded by the Lord. And it does show some actual history of the one Catholic Church and brings the Eastern Catholic Rites back into the picture. (It’s a shame that the history of the Catholic Church is neglected so by “you guys” while you pontificate concerning it.) And it does show how rich a Faith Catholicism is in comparison. (And how sorry I feel for you poor bereft people…and my poor bereft grandchildren.)

 

[mfbukowski]

I am sorry that I mistakenly attributed post #493–written by your “cohort” rmcmullan–to you. Must be because the post referenced my post #452 to you.

However my last two posts do answer the familiar accusation by Mormons that the Catholic Church is just “another manmade Church” and was not founded by the Lord. And it does show some actual history of the one Catholic Church and brings the Eastern Catholic Rites back into the picture. (It’s a shame that the history of the Catholic Church is neglected so by “you guys” while you pontificate concerning it.) And it does show how rich a Faith Catholicism is in comparison. (And how sorry I feel for you poor bereft people…and my poor bereft grandchildren.)

You know, everyone thank goodness has their agency, and they are doing what they think is right. And again, there IS this scripture:

Matt 10: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

The tradition they are beneficiaries of is in my opinion, even more rich, but it is hard for you to see. You only see Joseph as a lying conman. But he saw far beyond what you think he saw.

They are doing what they think is right, and though it is hard for you to see now, maybe someday you will understand.