Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

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mfbukowski said:
I am trying to be restrained, but it is hard. 😊
I have been a member 30 years. I have no problem with the doctrine of exaltation. It is my fondest dream. I don’t know why you thought I did. Read post 187. That is what we are discussing.
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I know that it is hard to restrain yourself when we are poking holes in your already leaky boat. I know that you are very much looking forward to being a god. Tell me, when you become a mormon god, do you get your hair back and lose your beer gut? Or are you just stuck with what you die with? Or are you like the gods of Greek mythology, whose lives were like soap operas? Then too, having perpetual sex wouldn’t give you much time for golf, would it? BTW, you are less charitable than condesending, but that is a common mormon trait, isn’t it?
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mfbukowski said:
You said something along the lines of “you need to use logic when evaluating a faith” or something like that.

I used the example of two catholic mystics who found Christ strictly through spiritual experience, making the point that it is not necessary to use logic to be converted. Look at Peter. He denied Jesus 3 times after witnessing all the miracles. And yet after pentacost, he was on fire himself. He was a great missionary and raised the dead. What was the difference between the Peter who denied christ and the one who raised the dead? It wasn’t logic! It was the holy ghost. It was his personal experience. We call that “testimony”
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Ah, well Peter was there for extraordinary miraculous events. You claim that a warm fuzzy feeling is an extraordinary event. Its not, its a psychological event that can occur in non-religious situations. If I tell someone that reading some novel will cause them to feel warm inside and offer false evidence that this happens it may happen through the power of suggestion. The power of suggestion is true. it can do much more than produce warm feelings, ever heard of the placebo effect? So if some mormon missionary tells some guy that he will feel warm after reading the BOM then the power of suggestion combined with the fact that this person may like the seemingly friendly Mormon Church will possibly result in a warm feeling.

Miracles happen all the time in the Catholic Church and these are truly extraordinary events. They are not just simple feelings. Also, I think Saints did in fact use their brains. They wouldnt stay within or join a church if it had blatant flaws. Thats why all the saints were Catholic. 🙂
 
mfbukowski said:
I’d love to have a long talk with my past self too. 😉 👍
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Don’t you? Reflecting on what and how I used to think is a great way to learn from my past thoughts and decisions. I’d hardly get anywhere if I never ‘spoke with’ my past self.
 
mfbukowski said:
I am trying to be restrained, but it is hard. 😊

I have been a member 30 years. I have no problem with the doctrine of exaltation. It is my fondest dream. I don’t know why you thought I did. Read post 187. That is what we are discussing.
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In your post 187 you refer to the Mormon concept of god (an exalted man) as a quasi-doctrinal theory. This is not how your church presents the material. Nowhere in the Gospel Principles Manual does it state that the teachings contained therein are “quasi-doctrinal theories.” The canon behind this, the doctrine of eternal progression, is detailed in the D&C.

As regards Mormon polytheism in your post 187, see chapters 4 and 5 of the PGP (Abraham). It’s also covered in the D&C and in numerous other Mormon sources/quotes right back to Joseph Smith and his “council of gods.”

As regards life on other planets in your post 187, chapter 3 of the PGP (Abraham) states that god, a corporeal being, lives on a planet near the star Kolob. As you are probably aware, there are numerous other Mormon sources/quotes that discuss this topic.

You can try to rationalize this sort of material all you like, but it is what it is. I don’t think anybody really cares what Mormons believe or don’t believe, what irritates people is when you try to sell this as a Christian faith.
 
Christians should care about, and respect how mormons value their children, and how they spend time with their family.

I can not imagine a single person here objecting to that.

Let’s see them as human beings, loving to their family, trying to raise children in a horrible world. And doing a good job of it too.

Then, cast your ugly stone throwing after looking in the mirror.
 
notsmart said:
Christians should care about, and respect how mormons value their children, and how they spend time with their family.

I can not imagine a single person here objecting to that.

Let’s see them as human beings, loving to their family, trying to raise children in a horrible world. And doing a good job of it too.

Then, cast your ugly stone throwing after looking in the mirror.
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So true. Now if only some on this thread would take such advice to heart. Many catholic families should emulate the mormon family: prayer, togetherness, gospel values etc. Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
notsmart said:
Christians should care about, and respect how mormons value their children, and how they spend time with their family.

I can not imagine a single person here objecting to that.

Let’s see them as human beings, loving to their family, trying to raise children in a horrible world. And doing a good job of it too.

Then, cast your ugly stone throwing after looking in the mirror.
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You know… the only thing I picked up as a Mormon that has been valuable to my family as a Christian is Family Home Evening.
Except that we don’t teach them false doctrines.

in Christ
Steph
 
why_me said:
So true. Now if only some on this thread would take such advice to heart. Many catholic families should emulate the mormon family: prayer, togetherness, gospel values etc. Nothing wrong with that at all.
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Mormon lies about Christ and His Church don’t constitute “gospel values.” :mad:
 
So Bukowski (any relation to Charles? 🙂 )has admitted to belief in the “plurality of gods”. Excellect!

For now, I’ll leave your bare assertion fallacies (“Masonic ritual is from Solomons Temple”) alone, but I won’t forget them!

You might want to study a little more on the Early Fathers (and current, para 1988) doctrine of theosis. We celebrate it every day during Holy Communion. But just as man is an ontologically different being from G*d, so is theosis ontologically different from exaltation.

I invite you to study up on our doctrines, and contemplate what the ECFs are saying, and how it carries on to this day. Here are a few starters:

geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis

geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis2

What you get on FARMs and Fairlds is an intellectually dishonest bastardization of these long-held beliefs.

In Christ

You ask us not to twist LDS doctrine, I would ask you to do the same.
 
RC_Matt said:
In your post 187 you refer to the Mormon concept of god (an exalted man) as a quasi-doctrinal theory. This is not how your church presents the material. Nowhere in the Gospel Principles Manual does it state that the teachings contained therein are “quasi-doctrinal theories.” The canon behind this, the doctrine of eternal progression, is detailed in the D&C.

As regards Mormon polytheism in your post 187, see chapters 4 and 5 of the PGP (Abraham). It’s also covered in the D&C and in numerous other Mormon sources/quotes right back to Joseph Smith and his “council of gods.”

As regards life on other planets in your post 187, chapter 3 of the PGP (Abraham) states that god, a corporeal being, lives on a planet near the star Kolob. As you are probably aware, there are numerous other Mormon sources/quotes that discuss this topic.

You can try to rationalize this sort of material all you like, but it is what it is. I don’t think anybody really cares what Mormons believe or don’t believe, what irritates people is when you try to sell this as a Christian faith.
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It says what it says, I said what I said. I see no conflict.

As I said, we answer questions catholics don’t even ask.

Where is Jesus body today? Floating in space somewhere?

Or maybe you believe He doesn’t have a physical body anymore?

But if it is physical and He has been resurrected, it exists in space time. Where?
 
RebeccaJ said:
It is typical for Mormons to believe that former Mormons left that religion because they were offended. I have always wondered if this is because they themselves have been offended, and nearly left, or what. But here it seems a Mormon is using it as an excuse to find fault with Catholicism.

🤷
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Rebecca,

You know that I always agree with you, but Mormons are not alone here, re your first statement. People often leave a religion, because they are scandalized, offended. Scandal is a sin against the fifth commandment, thou shalt not kill, because it kills the life of one’s neighbor’s soul.

People will leave both true religion and false when they are scandalized. All religions are full of imperfect people and at times they cause harm to one another. I realize why many Mormons get fed up with the program and leave. They are offended by what happened to them in their Mormon experience and think it is ridiculous. Then they get angry and feel they were duped and speak out trying to expose the fraud or sham. Current Mormons see this body of anti-Mormonism out there attacking their religion. They have to circle the wagons and defend themselves from angy offended ex-Mormons they find offensive. Catholics would do the same, but ex-Catholics mostly just quietly go away as a general rule.
 
mfbukowski said:
It says what it says, I said what I said. I see no conflict.

As I said, we answer questions catholics don’t even ask.
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These questions have been asked are are answered.
Where is Jesus body today? Floating in space somewhere?
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For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Or maybe you believe He doesn’t have a physical body anymore?
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Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
But if it is physical and He has been resurrected, it exists in space time. Where?
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We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,** of one Being with the Father**.
 
grandfather said:
Rebecca,

You know that I always agree with you, but Mormons are not alone here, re your first statement. People often leave a religion, because they are scandalized, offended. Scandal is a sin against the fifth commandment, thou shalt not kill, because it kills the life of one’s neighbor’s soul.

People will leave both true religion and false when they are scandalized. All religions are full of imperfect people and at times they cause harm to one another. I realize why many Mormons get fed up with the program and leave. They are offended by what happened to them in their Mormon experience and think it is ridiculous. Then they get angry and feel they were duped and speak out trying to expose the fraud or sham. Current Mormons see this body of anti-Mormonism out there attacking their religion. They have to circle the wagons and defend themselves from angy offended ex-Mormons they find offensive. Catholics would do the same, but ex-Catholics mostly just quietly go away as a general rule.
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It isn’t scandal in Mormonism, it is a belief by those still in the religion that there couldn’t possibly be any *reason *for a person to leave Mormonism. If you say it is doctrinal, a Mormon will tell you that you just didn’t try hard enough, or that you weren’t worthy of the Holy Spirit begin around you, helping you understand.

Mormons, essentially, believe that those of us who left, are defective. And that we made up excuses to leave. Being offended is one, that we want to sin is another.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Mormons, essentially, believe that those of us who left, are defective. And that we made up excuses to leave. Being offended is one, that we want to sin is another.
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Those who left Catholicism that I know have left for a variety of reasons. Some were offended or scandalized.

Some rejected the easy yoke as too hard. They rejected the moral restrictions. Maybe they were in adultery and wanted to leave a spouse and find another. The lifestyle they prefered contradicted Catholic moral teaching. They leave, because they want to live in sin. In fact they are spiritually defective in rejecting the known truth, but we all are in some way spiritually wounded.

Some could not accept some dogma.

Those who left for those reassons are the honest ones. Some stay and live a secret life trying to have it both ways. Jesus calls those folks hypocrits and the only people He ever condemned were hypocrits. They are pretenders.
 
mfbukowski said:
That’s ironic that you mention that because we all wear “habits”.

I get your point and stand corrected.
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Now that I look at this again, I missed the comment that the committment they make is not matched in Mormonism. I don’t agree to that at all.

I think every single Mormon who is living his or her faith makes a committment at least as strong as those classified as members of religious orders. If not stronger. You try to raise kids and put in 30 hours a week on your church calling while trying to make a living too.

There are are many in leadership positions who are in this category, and most members who are not in leadership put in at least several hours a week toward their callings. This is far in excess of what most catholics committ to with their membership.

How many catholics are full tithe payers? Our numbers run around 25% of our total membership. (Everyone included)

The level of committment in our church is, I think unmatched anywhere else. Why? Because we have testimonies.

I need to read more carefully while I am running through all these posts.
 
It appears that I have been ignored. Please attempt to explain to me mfbukowski how your “testimonies” are not just psychological effects as I demonstrated they are.
 
grandfather said:
Those who left Catholicism that I know have left for a variety of reasons. Some were offended or scandalized.

Some rejected the easy yoke as too hard. They rejected the moral restrictions. Maybe they were in adultery and wanted to leave a spouse and find another. The lifestyle they prefered contradicted Catholic moral teaching. They leave, because they want to live in sin. In fact they are spiritually defective in rejecting the known truth, but we all are in some way spiritually wounded.

Some could not accept some dogma.

Those who left for those reassons are the honest ones. Some stay and live a secret life trying to have it both ways. Jesus calls those folks hypocrits and the only people He ever condemned were hypocrits. They are pretenders.
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My experience is that leaving a religion is much more complex than formulaic scenarios.
 
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