Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[RebeccaJ]

It appears that I have been ignored. Please attempt to explain to me mfbukowski how your “testimones” are not just psychological effects as I demonstrated they are.

Join the list (of ignored).

 

[mfbukowski]

These questions have been asked are are answered.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,** of one Being with the Father**.

No, they haven’t been answered. You haven’t even asked the questions

This is my point precisely. Where exactly is heaven? Is it all around us? If the Son is “on the right hand of the Father” that is a spatial relationship.

The question of where is Mary’s body is the same. It is either in space time or it is not.

We answer questions you don’t even ask, and then you give us flack for answering them. “In heaven” is not an answer.

I want a spatial location or a theory which will accomodate that possibility.

 

[mfbukowski]

Join the list (of ignored).

So you are saying that Francis of Assisi and Theresa of Avila had psychological problems? That all spiritual experiences in the catholic church are psycholigical?

I really don’t think you want to go there.

Bernadette, our lady of fatima, all that is psychological?

 

[mfbukowski]

It appears that I have been ignored. Please attempt to explain to me mfbukowski how your “testimonies” are not just psychological effects as I demonstrated they are.

So you are saying that Francis of Assisi and Theresa of Avila had psychological problems? That all spiritual experiences in the catholic church are psycholigical?

I really don’t think you want to go there.

Bernadette, our lady of fatima, all that is psychological?

 

[mfbukowski]

In your post 187 you refer to the Mormon concept of god (an exalted man) as a quasi-doctrinal theory. This is not how your church presents the material. Nowhere in the Gospel Principles Manual does it state that the teachings contained therein are “quasi-doctrinal theories.” The canon behind this, the doctrine of eternal progression, is detailed in the D&C.

As regards Mormon polytheism in your post 187, see chapters 4 and 5 of the PGP (Abraham). It’s also covered in the D&C and in numerous other Mormon sources/quotes right back to Joseph Smith and his “council of gods.”

As regards life on other planets in your post 187, chapter 3 of the PGP (Abraham) states that god, a corporeal being, lives on a planet near the star Kolob. As you are probably aware, there are numerous other Mormon sources/quotes that discuss this topic.

You can try to rationalize this sort of material all you like, but it is what it is. I don’t think anybody really cares what Mormons believe or don’t believe, what irritates people is when you try to sell this as a Christian faith.

I think these points have been covered by my comments on the question of how to theoretically accomodate physical bodies existing in space, and the doctrine of theosis. Psalms talks about us all being “gods” and we were all in that council, so there is no inconsistency.

Christians are ones who believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and is God and the son of God, who came to earth for our salvation.

The apostles creed was accepted as the defining creed of christianity until Nicea. Mormons would have no problems with the apostles creed. How you can call someone “not christian” who would agree with the defining creed of early christianity is beyond me.

 

[dzheremi]

No, they haven’t been answered. You haven’t even asked the questions

This is my point precisely. Where exactly is heaven? Is it all around us? If the Son is “on the right hand of the Father” that is a spatial relationship.

The question of where is Mary’s body is the same. It is either in space time or it is not.

We answer questions you don’t even ask, and then you give us flack for answering them. “In heaven” is not an answer.

I want a spatial location or a theory which will accomodate that possibility.

Oh, so NOW you Mormons want scientific answers (just not when we’re talking about the claims of the BoM, huh?)! It sure would be nice if you guys could be consistent for five freaking sceonds!

We believe as RebeccaJ has posted because that reflects what we are taught in the Bible. These questions that you are boasting of answering are irrelevant and you’d see that if you actually followed the Word as it was given to you, instead of the doctrines of a con man philanderer.

 

[mfbukowski]

So Bukowski (any relation to Charles? )has admitted to belief in the “plurality of gods”. Excellect!

For now, I’ll leave your bare assertion fallacies (“Masonic ritual is from Solomons Temple”) alone, but I won’t forget them!

You might want to study a little more on the Early Fathers (and current, para 1988) doctrine of theosis. We celebrate it every day during Holy Communion. But just as man is an ontologically different being from G*d, so is theosis ontologically different from exaltation.

I invite you to study up on our doctrines, and contemplate what the ECFs are saying, and how it carries on to this day. Here are a few starters:

geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis

geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis2

What you get on FARMs and Fairlds is an intellectually dishonest bastardization of these long-held beliefs.

In Christ

You ask us not to twist LDS doctrine, I would ask you to do the same.

Someone who has read a book!

Masonic Lore links Masonry to solomon’s temple. Masons typically discount that, but the old testament is full of masonic symbolism, so I really can’t imagine that it DIDN’T come from Solomon’s temple. Albert Pike who is recognized as perhaps THE authority on masonry wrote a book called “Morals and Dogma” which I think is available on line. I happen to own a first edition of this book, and it is great – authographed by all the members of a lodge in Pasadena California in the 1920’s.

It is clear that Pike believes masonry is ancient.

As far as admitting to “plurality of the gods” as always, it depends on what the terms mean.

I appreciate the links on theosis.

We of course belive that our “exaltation” is the true doctrine of which “theosis” is a derivative.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, they haven’t been answered. You haven’t even asked the questions

This is my point precisely. Where exactly is heaven? Is it all around us? If the Son is “on the right hand of the Father” that is a spatial relationship.

The question of where is Mary’s body is the same. It is either in space time or it is not.

We answer questions you don’t even ask, and then you give us flack for answering them. “In heaven” is not an answer.

I want a spatial location or a theory which will accomodate that possibility.

Where is heaven, is that your question?

Yes, that is a large question, that people have pondered. It is a question that God has not revealed the answer to.

There are opinions, which mainly involved descriptions (as found in scripture). A glorious abode, a blessed place with specific limits, outside of the Earth. The Church itself has given no decision.

Is it important for you to know? If so, why?

 

[PaulDupre]

Christians should care about, and respect how mormons value their children, and how they spend time with their family.

The idea that Mormons are devoted to their families is nothing but PR talk.

When I was LDS, I hardly ever saw my wife and kids. I had so many church callings to fulfill that I was busy nearly every night and all day Sunday. At the worst of it near the end, I was 2nd counselor in the bishopric, MP quorum teacher and had 11 families to home teach. Refusing a calling (which we were told came by revelation direct from God) was unthinkable. The bishop told my wife “Give him up now, so that you can have him in eternity”. My wife (now ex-wife) hated the church (and me) for that.

It wasn’t until we left the Mormon church that I ever got to spend any significant time with my wife and kids. But by then the damage had been done.

 

[RebeccaJ]

mfbukowski,

Catholics believe in a very real Kingdom of God. Where Mormons believe it is something to come, something that you are building to, we believe it is here, and now.

God pitched His tent among us, Jesus set down the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

This is from the 2007 Christmas homily that Pope Benedict XVI gave at the midnight Mass:

“In the stable at Bethlehem, Heaven and Earth meet. Heaven has come down to Earth. For this reason, a light shines from the stable for all times; for this reason joy is enkindled there; for this reason song is born there. At the end of our Christmas meditation I should like to quote a remarkable passage from Saint Augustine. Interpreting the invocation in the Lord’s Prayer: “Our Father who art in Heaven”, he asks: what is this – Heaven? And where is Heaven? Then comes a surprising response: “… who art in Heaven – that means: in the saints and in the just. Yes, the heavens are the highest bodies in the universe, but they are still bodies, which cannot exist except in a given location. Yet if we believe that God is located in the heavens, meaning in the highest parts of the world, then the birds would be more fortunate than we, since they would live closer to God. Yet it is not written: ‘The Lord is close to those who dwell on the heights or on the mountains’, but rather: ‘the Lord is close to the brokenhearted’ (Ps 34:18[33:19]), an expression which refers to humility. Just as the sinner is called ‘Earth’, so by contrast the just man can be called ‘Heaven’” (Sermo in monte II 5, 17). Heaven does not belong to the geography of space, but to the geography of the heart. And the heart of God, during the Holy Night, stooped down to the stable: the humility of God is Heaven. And if we approach this humility, then we touch Heaven. Then the Earth too is made new. With the humility of the shepherds, let us set out, during this Holy Night, towards the Child in the stable! Let us touch God’s humility, God’s heart! Then his joy will touch us and will make the world more radiant. Amen.”

I know that doesn’t answer your question, where is God, physically located, at this moment. It is not known, and honestly, I am not so sure it would be possible for us to understand.

God has not said, exactly, where Heaven is, but He has made it clear that we should live as though Heaven were here, among us. So, wouldn’t that indicate to you that we are, in fact, part of God’s Kingdom, now, today?

 

[scipio337]

I think these points have been covered by my comments on the question of how to theoretically accomodate physical bodies existing in space, and the doctrine of theosis. Psalms talks about us all being “gods” and we were all in that council, so there is no inconsistency.

Christians are ones who believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and is God and the son of God, who came to earth for our salvation.

The apostles creed was accepted as the defining creed of christianity until Nicea. Mormons would have no problems with the apostles creed. How you can call someone “not christian” who would agree with the defining creed of early christianity is beyond me.

Please, you can’t claim theosis is anything like exaltation. It all comes down to essense. In orthodox Christianity, Gd and man are different species. Gd isn’t just greater in degree. I had a FARMs link that actually outlined key differences between the two concepts, but for some reason, they’ve taken it down. See the links I listed prviously in this thread.

Furthermore, anything outside of ex nihilo is not, in and of itself, an argument for the LDS style “mortal preexistence”. I’m not sure why you’re beating that drum.

 

[mfbukowski]

Where is heaven, is that your question?

Yes, that is a large question, that people have pondered. It is a question that God has not revealed the answer to.

There are opinions, which mainly involved descriptions (as found in scripture). A glorious abode, a blessed place with specific limits, outside of the Earth. The Church itself has given no decision.

Is it important for you to know? If so, why?

Yes, you have proven my point.

We answer questions you don’t even ask or have a clue about.

You are right. It is a blessed “place” in space time,outside the earth, it is a glorious abode with “specific limits”

What if we change the name of heaven to “Kolob”. It fits the parameters you have described exactly.

 

[Believe_85]

Yes, you have proven my point.

We answer questions you don’t even ask or have a clue about.

You are right. It is a blessed “place” in space time,outside the earth, it is a glorious abode with “specific limits”

What if we change the name of heaven to “Kolob”. It fits the parameters you have described exactly.

And how did you answer these questions? With revelations to your prophets, right? So here we are back at square one. Your views of God and theology come from a source we cannot trust. If you are here just to share your beliefs, fine. Most of us have heard all about them before. But don’t expect us to trust or accept these “revelations” and do expect heated discussions regarding LDS rejection of the authority of the Catholic Church and the ability of the Holy Spirit to protect God’s Church.

 

[mfbukowski]

The idea that Mormons are devoted to their families is nothing but PR talk.

When I was LDS, I hardly ever saw my wife and kids. I had so many church callings to fulfill that I was busy nearly every night and all day Sunday. At the worst of it near the end, I was 2nd counselor in the bishopric, MP quorum teacher and had 11 families to home teach. Refusing a calling (which we were told came by revelation direct from God) was unthinkable. The bishop told my wife “Give him up now, so that you can have him in eternity”. My wife (now ex-wife) hated the church (and me) for that.

It wasn’t until we left the Mormon church that I ever got to spend any significant time with my wife and kids. But by then the damage had been done.

Your bishop should have realized that you, or more likely, your marraige, was not ready for this level of committment. I am very sorry this happened to you. It sounds like you must have been in a very small ward that was in desperate shape to have so many callings at once. Bishopric counselors almost never have any other callings. The home teaching goes with the priesthood, but you should not have had that much. There are always alternatives with home teaching including phone calls and letters for the inactives.

But to say that the LDS committment to families is just PR because you were not ready for the amount of committment that was placed on you is not accurate. It was not the LDS view of family life that broke up your marriage.

Usually when the stressor is relieved, marriages re-knit.

Again, I am truly sorry you had this experience.

 

[mfbukowski]

Please, you can’t claim theosis is anything like exaltation. It all comes down to

essense. In orthodox Christianity, Gd and man are different species. Gd isn’t just greater in degree. I had a FARMs link that actually outlined key differences between the two concepts, but for some reason, they’ve taken it down. See the links I listed prviously in this thread.

Furthermore, anything outside of ex nihilo is not, in and of itself, an argument for the LDS style “mortal preexistence”. I’m not sure why you’re beating that drum.

I am not sure what you mean, but this sounds like an interesting area to pursue. Can you explain to me in experiential terms what “essence” means? How could we measure essence or show that it even exists. If we cannot experience it, what is it? It is not an a priori assertion, I don’t think. I think I don’t have a problem with God being a “different species” but I believe personally that exaltation is in fact a transformation to a higher state not unlike the “omega point” of Teillard de Chardin. We all have the opportunity to be transformed into “Christ-beings” and that is what I think exaltation is.

We can take it up here or on another thread if you like.

I am also interested in what you mean by "something other than “ex nihilo” alternative.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Christians are ones who believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and is God and the son of God, who came to earth for our salvation.

That is just one definition (and the one you have chosen and the one you wish to present while ignoring the others.)

And as far as the creeds go, you seem to have it backwards. You seem to think that they were “made up” and then the Church embraced them. However, the truth is that the creeds told others what Christians (not Gnostics or Arians) already believed. The fact is, the Nicene Creed came to be simply because the Church was having to deal with the particular heresies of the times just as the was noted in the Scriptures.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, you have proven my point.

We answer questions you don’t even ask or have a clue about.

You are right. It is a blessed “place” in space time,outside the earth, it is a glorious abode with “specific limits”

What if we change the name of heaven to “Kolob”. It fits the parameters you have described exactly.

Again, you limit God. He has to be somewhere that can fit our human limitations. I can see how it is necessary for you, as you believe that your god is human.

Catholics are fine with not knowing. We don’t attempt to limit God to a particular place or time. What is important to us is becoming holy, in order that we can share in God’s glory.

You did not answer, why it is important to you to have this question answered.

 

[PaulDupre]

Your bishop should have realized that you, or more likely, your marraige, was not ready for this level of committment. I am very sorry this happened to you. It sounds like you must have been in a very small ward that was in desperate shape to have so many callings at once. Bishopric counselors almost never have any other callings. The home teaching goes with the priesthood, but you should not have had that much. There are always alternatives with home teaching including phone calls and letters for the inactives.

But to say that the LDS committment to families is just PR because you were not ready for the amount of committment that was placed on you is not accurate. It was not the LDS view of family life that broke up your marriage.

Usually when the stressor is relieved, marriages re-knit.

Again, I am truly sorry you had this experience.

Thanks, but you yourself said that on top of a full-time job, LDS men are expected to give 30 hours a week to church callings. That is almost as much time as I had to put in. So it is true that Mormonism considers church work more important than family.

The talk of LDS “family values” is just that - talk. Mormon families are merely a commodity to be used by the leadership.

 

[scipio337]

I am not sure what you mean, but this sounds like an interesting area to pursue. Can you explain to me in experiential terms what “essence” means? How could we measure essence or show that it even exists. If we cannot experience it, what is it? It is not an a priori assertion, I don’t think. I think I don’t have a problem with God being a “different species” but I believe personally that exaltation is in fact a transformation to a higher state not unlike the “omega point” of Teillard de Chardin. We all have the opportunity to be transformed into “Christ-beings” and that is what I think exaltation is.

We can take it up here or on another thread if you like.

I am also interested in what you mean by "something other than “ex nihilo” alternative.

Google ousia. In theosis, there is no primary change in the nature of Gd or man, and while we may be part of him in his glory, Gd’s ousia remains intact, and we are not part of it.

“Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in His Resurrection by being born to new life; we are members of His Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the Vine which is Himself: ‘[God] gave Himself to us through His Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.’” [Catechism of the Catholic Church, no 1988]

The several hypothesises that Gd created the world out of existing “matter” to me doesn’t argue for either a time there was no Gd, nor an “eternal” matter, nor a “pre-existence”.

 

[hosemonkey]

No matter how many words that you put down, no matter how much you squirm and try to explain your false religion, it still comes down to one fact that everyone except poor duped mormons can agree on. You and your false religion are wrong. No justifications on your part will suffice, mormonism wars against God, mormonism denies Christ, mormonism is the instrument of Satan and those in it’s clutches will be saved only by the mercy of God. Most likely, mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are stoking in the engine rooms of Hell. The Hosemonkey said that.