Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

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AirLiner said:
Wow thats a blatant strawman argument. I never said those saints had psychological problems. The miracles experienced in the Catholic Church are very real extraordinary events. What I was saying about psychological events is that the warm fuzzy feeling mormon testimony is a psychological phenomenon produced by the power of suggestion. Go back and read post #292. Please.
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How arogant can you be to tell me that my spiritual experience is a “warm fuzzy” which was psychologically induced? You don’t even understand the point.

Who are you to judge ANYONE’s spiritual experience? How do you know what visions I have had or not had? If we are to allow ANY spiritual experiences, we must allow ALL spiritual experiences. Let’s set up a judicial system to judge whether spiritual experiences are psychological or “real”

How absurd! I can’t believe you would even think that?!
 
1holycatholic said:
Bzzt! God, in His essence, is pure spirit and does not exist in time or space.

The only mention of “lying slave paradox” in Google is your post. Are you certain that’s what it’s called?
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Explain to me what an “essence” is. What exactly is a “spirit”? Is it a force field, is it energy or what?

The bible describes God in spatial relationships – Jesus “on his right hand”

Is it in principle measurable or knowable? How would I judge if you are correct about what you say about spirit or essence? If there is no way to show that you are correct, then there is no point in discussing it.

Of course you could say that you accept this on faith and it is not provable. But then my rejoinder would be that I do not accept that on faith, and there is still no point in pretending to discuss it.
 
PaulDupre said:
Your god could not have created time. This is simply because in Mormon cosmology matter and energy pre-date your god. Your god arose from within the universe of matter and energy that has always existed according to Mormonism. Wherever there is matter and energy, there is time. So time existed during all of Elohim’s progression from intelligence to spirit to human to god.

So your god could not have created time. He can’t even create matter and energy, he can only “organize” it.

By the way, it is not only “possible” that Elohim was once as we are now. It is Mormon doctrine that he was like we are now and lived on an earth much like ours (see Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, “Exaltation”). If you don’t believe that, then you are at odds with your First Presidency and with Joseph Smith.
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“This is simply because in Mormon cosmology matter and energy pre-date your god.”

This is not the case. You missed my point entirely. God is eternal. I said that. You and I are also eternal. Matter and energy do not predate either God or our spirits.

“Your god arose from within the universe…”

No, if He organized the universe, he could not have been within it.

This is simply re-asserting your point without even considering what I am discussing. I am saying there is a paradox in speaking of what happened “before time”, or more exactly, talking about how God “once was”. It is a paradox which is easily solvable by keeping within logical contexts.

I have no problem with the doctrine of exaltation, but I am not sure you would cite such a silly source as the “gospel principles” manual.

I said it was “possible” not because I doubted it, but because I meant my explanation of exaltation was one “possible” explanation

It seems that you guys are shocked that anyone would actually believe in your own doctrine of theosis. Admittedly, exaltation is not the same as theosis exactly, but it seems to be only a quesiton of degree.
 
mfbukowski said:
How arogant can you be to tell me that my spiritual experience is a “warm fuzzy” which was psychologically induced? You don’t even understand the point.

Who are you to judge ANYONE’s spiritual experience? How do you know what visions I have had or not had? If we are to allow ANY spiritual experiences, we must allow ALL spiritual experiences. Let’s set up a judicial system to judge whether spiritual experiences are psychological or “real”

How absurd! I can’t believe you would even think that?!
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About as arrogant as you were with this statement maybe?
mfbukowski said:
As much as I disagree with evangelicals, they GET the “born again” experience. Catholics just don’t. They are born going to church once a week and putting $5. in the plate, and they die that way. For the most part there is no committment, no fire, no conversion. They believe it because it is old and they believe the tradition goes back for 2000 years so it must be true.
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nebula said:
Right, that’s why missionaries teach you how to ‘discern’ the spirit first thing. If you feel anything peaceful or nice while they present their message, it’s the spirit. If it’s anything negative, it might be the devil (yup, heard that one). Warm fuzzies IS appropriate to describe that end of it.
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The warm fuzzie angle is a tool that antimormons use to nullify the feeling of the holy spirit. And yet, when one is filled with the holy spirit, a feeling of warmth and peace is what is basically felt. But I wouldn’t call it a warm fuzzy. 🙂

Catholics don’t feel the warmth and peace of the holy spirit???
 
PaulDupre said:
That’s one of the devices that cults use to hold onto their members. They convince them that all non-members are so evil that the only way to avoid ending up dead in the gutter is to remain in the cult.

When I left the LDS, several Mormons informed me that within a few years I would wind up dead in the gutter, that that always happens to apostates. They really believed it!

Paul (out of the cult for 22 years and still gutter-free!)
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Do you mean to tell me that all mormons believe that non-members are unhappy and evil?? I don’t think so. No one that I know believes such a thing about non-members. However, mormons and apologetic-minded catholics do believe that their church is true and as such, people would be better off as members. Right?
 
mfbukowski said:
How arogant can you be to tell me that my spiritual experience is a “warm fuzzy” which was psychologically induced? You don’t even understand the point.
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Don’t worry too much about it. Most antimormons and former mormons equate the feeling of the holy spirit to a warm fuzzy as a way and a means to justify their departure from the lds church. But one thing that I do know: when they were lds members they felt good, feeling that feeling of the holy spirit, which has now become a ‘warm fuzzie’ remembrance for them.
 
hosemonkey said:
mormons describe it as “a burning in the bosom”." I call it heartburn. Or something else.
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And what do you feel when you attend Mass? Do you feel the holy spirit? Do you feel a feeling of peace and warmth when you sit alone in the RC church? I can. When you enter the RC church, do you feel the holy spirit dwelling inside that church? I can.

If you don’t feel anything, maybe you need to soften your heart and experience god and his helper the holy spirit. 🙂
 
why_me said:
Don’t worry too much about it. Most antimormons and former mormons equate the feeling of the holy spirit to a warm fuzzy as a way and a means to justify their departure from the lds church. But one thing that I do know: when they were lds members they felt good, feeling that feeling of the holy spirit, which has now become a ‘warm fuzzie’ remembrance for them.
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Not really. I never had a warm fuzzy over anything re:Mormonism. Mostly, I had run-like-hell feelings.
 
why_me said:
antimormons
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There it is again–“antimormon”. Either you are LDS or “antimormon”. It’s as if it’s even one or the other, and it simply isn’t in the LDS mind that someone can be non-LDS. (I’ve answered phone calls where I was called “sister …” {in case you don’t know all LDS women are known as “sister”}, have had LDS strangers on the street just assume that I’m from the “Relief Society” {because I was bringing gifts to my own daughter}, and had a little toddler follow me around at daughter’s open house wedding reception asking me “What ward are you?” but I’m not Mormon and very happy to be non-LDS {especially after I’ve witnessed Mormon behavior}.) Why can’t it simply be “non-LDS”? Why do the “non-LDS” have to be villified?
 
mfbukowski said:
I have no problem with the doctrine of exaltation, but I am not sure you would cite such a silly source as the “gospel principles” manual.
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Gospel Principles is the official LDS Church manual used to teach the faith. How is that “silly”? It is an accurate representation of Mormon doctrine. Your First Presidency approved it, so it must represent current Mormon doctrine. Or is your living prophet mistaken again?
 
why_me said:
The warm fuzzie angle is a tool that antimormons use to nullify the feeling of the holy spirit. And yet, when one is filled with the holy spirit, a feeling of warmth and peace is what is basically felt. But I wouldn’t call it a warm fuzzy. 🙂

Catholics don’t feel the warmth and peace of the holy spirit???
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The feeling isn’t the villified thing. What is villified is a simplistic reliance on subjective feelings at the expense of any kind of reasoning or thought when it comes to discerning the nature of ultimate truth. Feelings can, and are, abused. Think of those tear jerker movies, they may have the worst plots and be completely shallow, and yet move you to tears. That’s because we are built to have certain things pull at our heart strings and hollywood has learned how to manipulate that. It’s a similar problem here, how do you know you aren’t being manipulated if all that you have is ‘warm fuzzies’? If that’s it… that’s the whole of it… you probably are being manipulated.
 
mfbukowski said:
How arogant can you be to tell me that my spiritual experience is a “warm fuzzy” which was psychologically induced? You don’t even understand the point.

Who are you to judge ANYONE’s spiritual experience? How do you know what visions I have had or not had? If we are to allow ANY spiritual experiences, we must allow ALL spiritual experiences. Let’s set up a judicial system to judge whether spiritual experiences are psychological or “real”

How absurd! I can’t believe you would even think that?!
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Well if your “spiritual experience” was having a physical feeling after a Mormon source told you that it would happen, then it was a psychological event, not a spiritual experience.

And I don’t think its absurd to evaluate whether a situation is a miracle or just a normal non-extraordinary event.

Oh so you have had visions? Lets talk about those then.
 
mfbukowski said:
I have no problem with the doctrine of exaltation, but I am not sure you would cite such a silly source as the “gospel principles” manual.
.
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Are you telling us that the LDS Gospel Principles Manual, as presented on the LDS website, by the LDS church, doesn’t really teach valid LDS gospel principles??? While I may agree that much of the content therein is indeed “silly,” I think your ecclesial authorities consider it authoritative, or they wouldn’t have put it there, DUH!
 
AirLiner said:
Alright, so its not just a mere physical feeling because of course are non-supernatural and they can be induced in secular situations.

However this still means that thousands of people have been fooled into thinking that the Holy Spirit testimony is a mere physical feeling! The missionaries and LDS website should be alot more clear in this aspect. I have never seen Mormon.org or any of the missionaries tell people you are going to have an extraordinary experience that truley will prove to you that the BOM is truth. All they say is you will feel a warm burning feeling. This means that a large portion of LDS members have felt a fake suggestion-induced physical feeling “testimony”.

In fact, I have never read an account of someone having an extraordinary enlightening experience when God reveals to them that the LDS Church is true. All the testimonies I have read about just describe a physical feeling, a burning sensation. Could this mean that all LDS testimonies are fake?
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I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church are true. What is your problem with that?

zerinus
 
RC_Matt said:
Are you telling us that the LDS Gospel Principles Manual, as presented on the LDS website, by the LDS church, doesn’t really teach valid LDS gospel principles??? While I may agree that much of the content therein is indeed “silly,” I think your ecclesial authorities consider it authoritative, or they wouldn’t have put it there, DUH!
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It’s a perfectly fine source. All I meant is that there are other sources which would be seen as more authoritative.
 
mfbukowski said:
It’s a perfectly fine source. All I meant is that there are other sources which would be seen as more authoritative.
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It’s a great source, because it states clearly what the LDS church teaches NOW, with citations to LDS primary sources. When we cite Gospel Principles, Mormons cannot deny their doctrines saying “No, we don’t believe that”, something we get a lot of around here. Maybe you don’t believe it, but your church does.

For purposes of interfaith dialog, Gospel Principles serves much the same function as our Catechism.
 
zerinus said:
I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church are true. What is your problem with that?

zerinus
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Let me guess, you had an undescribable experience in which the Holy Spirit helped you realize that the LDS Church and BOM are true. Well if that really happened Mormonism would be true.

However Mormonism isn’t true and I am forced instead to accept that you misinterpreted something as a testimony of the Holy Spirit. However since you say its “undescribable” I’m not really sure how to refute what you misinterpreted.

Are you sure you can’t describe anything about it? Did it involve any feelings at all? Did you hear something? Did you see something? Did LDS Doctrine suddenly make sense to you?
 
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