Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[hosemonkey]

One of the things that attracted me to the church was the doctrine of exaltation. It just makes sense. Why would we float around eternally playing harps on clouds? I know no one believes that, but ceasingly praising God and laying around all day sounds boring to me

Did anyone notice that little Fruedian slip that Ski made in the above post? “But ceasingly praising God and laying around all day sounds boring to me.” He probably meant to say “unceasingly” but I think that that little slip says a lot about the mormon estimation of God. I belive that they think that God is just the next person in their “upline.”

 

[AirLiner]

Do you think Peter would have?

zerinus

I don’t know, but his testimony was real yours isn’t. The Mormon’s “burning in the bosom” testimony isn’t real. I was able to demonstrate that. Because of this Zerinus, you changed the definition of Mormon testimony to undescribable experience. That made it more difficult for me to disprove it because I don’t know what exactly you experienced.

Typical Mormon tactics. Changing the definition of things so that they can stay in their denial that its true.

 

[AMDGtoo]

One of the things that attracted me to the church was the doctrine of exaltation. It just makes sense. Why would we float around eternally playing harps on clouds? I know no one believes that, but ceasingly praising God and laying around all day sounds boring to me

Oh you poor thing! Your Catholic education was sooo bereft! You weren’t even allowed to know the riches you had! First you claim that all Catholics do is go to Church once a week and put five bucks in the collection plate, forgetting that Mass is held every day, there are numerous devotions and many of us are a part of “Sacrificial Giving” that includes not only time and money to the Church, but also to charities of choice. (Yes and about “choice”, it seems that it’s the Catholic Church that practices real choice–free agency?) Next it seems that you were never educated to know about our “elder brothers and sisters” who have run the race and seek to do good (it’s even mentioned in the Scriptures.) You poor poor thing. And my poor, poor grandchildren who have been robbed by the LDS Church because they too have been denied their Lord and their birthright!

 

[AirLiner]

I was browsing through old posts in another thread and I found this one by Zerinus where he discusses the “testimony”.

When the Holy Spirit witnesses to you that something is true, it is spirit talking to the spirit. It is not something that can be described, conveyed, or communicated to someone else. It is something that both enlightens your mind, as well as touches your heart, so that you just know that it is true. Allow me to quote you some verses from the Bible:

John 14:

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Do you believe in these scriptures? Do you think that what they are saying is true? If you believe that they are true, I can turn your own question round to you and ask, How does the Holy Ghost accomplish this? How does He “teach you all things,” and “guide you into all truth”? Have you experienced this yourself? Can you describe it to me? I don’t think that you can. Nevertheless it is true. The Holy Ghost does indeed “teach you all things,” and “lead you into all truth;” but nobody who has experienced it can describe to you how it happens. It is something that enlightens your mind and enables you to know what is true. Allow me to quote you some more verses from the Bible:

1 John 2:

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

“Unction” here means an “anointing,” and it refers to the anointing of the Holy Ghost. The Bible says that Jesus was “anointed with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 10:38); and it is the same anointing that all the saints receive. And it says that this “anointing” (of the Holy Ghost) enables you to “know all things”. In verse 27 of the same chapter John clarifies this even further by saying:

27 But the anointing [of the Holy Ghost] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Did you hear that? It keeps on teaching the same thing, that the Holy Ghost when imparted to you can enlighten your mind, lead you to all truth, teaches you all things you need to know, so that you need not be in the dark about anything, and “ye need not that any man teach you”. Now, question for you: How does the Holy Ghost do all of that? Have you experienced it? If you have can you describe it to me? Well I have experienced it, and I can tell you that it is not something that you can describe to someone else. If you want to see an example of it in action, here is one:

Matthew 16:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did Peter receive his testimony that Jesus was the Son of God? Could he have described it to you? I think not, because he himself apparently didn’t know! Jesus had to tell him where it came from! It had come from God, by the power of His Spirit. That is how the Holy Spirit operates on the mind. It enables you to know something that you hadn’t known before. You can’t describe how you know it. You just know that you know it.

That is also the promise that is associated with the Book of Mormon. It says that if you read it, with a sincere desire to know that it is true, that truth will be manifested to you in an unmistakable way by the power of the Holy Ghost. And then it goes on to say that “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5), not just the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Thank you. And I look forward to answer any questions you may have about it after you have read it.

zerinus

Well, Zerinus you still claim that it is indescribable but you were more specific. You say that the Holy Spirit enables you to know something you hadn’t know before. New information was suddenly inserted into your brain. What was this information? And did someone tell you this would happen before you experienced it?

 

[zerinus]

I don’t know, but his testimony was real yours isn’t. The Mormon’s “burning in the bosom” testimony isn’t real. I was able to demonstrate that. Because of this Zerinus, you changed the definition of Mormon testimony to undescribable experience. That made it more difficult for me to disprove it because I don’t know what exactly you experienced.

I experienced what Peter experienced.

Typical Mormon tactics. Changing the definition of things so that they can stay in their denial that its true.

Typical anti-Mormon tactic. They can’t disprove Mormonism out of the Bible, so they resort to extra-biblical sophistry to do so. When we block that rout, then they cry fowl!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I was browsing through old posts in another thread and I found this one by Zerinus where he discusses the “testimony”.

That post is from an old thread. I remember having had that discussion many months ago, I think last year.

Well, Zerinus you still claim that it is indescribable but you were more specific. You say that the Holy Spirit enables you to know something you hadn’t know before. New information was suddenly inserted into your brain.

The operation of the Holy Spirit on your mind is something that you learn to recognize by experience. The more you put your life in tune with the will of God, and the more faithful and diligent you are in obeying His commandments, the closer you get to Him, and the impressions of the Holy Spirit become more frequent and its operation on your mind becomes more discernible to you.

What was this information?

The information can be anything that it is the will of God to be made known to you. As Moroni said in the Book of Mormon, “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things”

And did someone tell you this would happen before you experienced it?

Yes, this process has been described in various sermons and talks given by the leaders of the Church. But no explanation can tell you what it is until you begin to recognize its operation in your own life.

zerinus

 

[Matariel]

I experienced what Peter experienced.

How do you know? How do you know it wasn’t something you yourself imagined or something satanic…!

Typical anti-Mormon tactic. They can’t disprove Mormonism out of the Bible, so they resort to extra-biblical sophistry to do so. When we block that rout, then they cry fowl!

zerinus

I think you mean “foul”. Besides, I think it’s up to Mormons to explain themselves. Especially the doctrinal shifts overtime, the fact that Joseph Smith called for vengence as he died (As opposed to Christ, who said, “Father, forgive them”) and the untenibility of the henotheistic Mormon view of God. And the absurdity of a corporeal God the Father, which only the ancient Greeks could rival. Oh yeah, and the fact that Christ said the gates of Hell wouldn’t prevail over the Catholic Church.

 

[zerinus]

How do you know? How do you know it wasn’t something you yourself imagined or something satanic…!

I think you mean “foul”. Besides, I think it’s up to Mormons to explain themselves. Especially the doctrinal shifts overtime, the fact that Joseph Smith called for vengence as he died (As opposed to Christ, who said, “Father, forgive them”) and the untenibility of the henotheistic Mormon view of God. And the absurdity of a corporeal God the Father, which only the ancient Greeks could rival. Oh yeah, and the fact that Christ said the gates of Hell wouldn’t prevail over the Catholic Church.

Your signature line tells your story better than I could: “Holy saints of God pray for us”. That is a false hethen religion. We don’t pray to Mary or the saints. We pray to God. As Paul said: “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (Timothy 2:5).

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

This lack of respect undermines the credibility of any arguments you make here. Has Zerinus ever said that the Pope, the founder of your religion, is a truly unpleasant and wicked man? You do follow the teachings of the Pope? No one is cutting down your pope. Not the current one or the one who started the Roman Catholic church back in the 11th Century when they split with the Orthodox church.

 

[RC_Matt]

This lack of respect undermines the credibility of any arguments you make here. Has Zerinus ever said that the Pope, the founder of your religion, is a truly unpleasant and wicked man? You do follow the teachings of the Pope? No one is cutting down your pope. Not the current one or the one who started the Roman Catholic church back in the 11th Century when they split with the Orthodox church.

See Matthew (7:5), then review your 11th article of faith.

 

[majick275]

Your signature line tells your story better than I could: “Holy saints of God pray for us”. That is a false hethen religion. We don’t pray to Mary or the saints. We pray to God. As Paul said: “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (Timothy 2:5).

zerinus

but you don’t pray to jesus…or the holy spirit…so you’re 33% right at least. we have multiple examples in the bible of the effciacy of teh saints prayers. even LDS believe in asking others to pray for them. in the temple bags of prayer requests are placed on the altar and prayed over. what’s the difference? do LDS really believe that those whose mortal life is over can’t/won’t/don/t pray for the living? of course not.

 

[AMDGtoo]

the Pope, the founder of your religion

Actually our religion was founded by Jesus Christ (remember Matthew 16:18-19?) When you claim that it wasn’t (contrary to what Scripture says) you are engaging in a sort of “trashing”.

 

[AirLiner]

I wouldn’t dream of saying such a thing. The Catholic Church is great. The best of the lot as far as traditionally Christianity is concerned. Love it to bits, honest!

Yes, he actually said that. I guess this is how Mormons attract converts with their “kindness”.

That is a false hethen religion.

I guess he lost his patience after Mormonism got called a cult.

 

[AirLiner]

The information can be anything that it is the will of God to be made known to you. As Moroni said in the Book of Mormon, “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things”

So what was the information that you suddenly learned by this “extaordinary means”?

Yes, this process has been described in various sermons and talks given by the leaders of the Church. But no explanation can tell you what it is until you begin to recognize its operation in your own life.

zerinus

Aha! now I can suspect the power of suggestion as causing whatever you confused with the Holy Spirit.

 

[zerinus]

So what was the information that you suddenly learned by this “extaordinary means”?

I know that Mormonism is true.

Aha! now I can suspect the power of suggestion as causing whatever you confused with the Holy Spirit.

In other words, no matter what I say, or how good an argument I put forward from scripture, or from reason, or from history, or by any other means, you have already made up your mind not to accept it—regardless of anything. So what is the point of me continuing with this discussion, or answering your questions? What is the point of you asking me these questions? It does not seem like a very honorable way to discuss religion, or anything else for that matter. A great waste of time I should say.

zerinus

 

[AirLiner]

Kk, but you misquoted me. I just thought I’d point that out.

 

[AirLiner]

I know that Mormonism is true.

So one day you didn’t know that Mormonism is true and the next you just knew that it was. That seems to me more like an opinion you made for yourself one day instead of previously unknown knowledge that the Holy Spirit inserted into your mind. So even though there was no “burning feeling” involved this is starting to seem like a psychological effect to me again.

In other words, no matter what I say, or how good an argument I put forward from scripture, or from reason, or from history, or by any other means, you have already made up your mind not to accept it—regardless of anything. So what is the point of me continuing with this discussion, or answering your questions? What is the point of you asking me these questions? It does not seem like a very honorable way to discuss religion, or anything else for that matter. A great waste of time I should say.

zerinus

I was asking questions so I could learn enough about your “testimony” to disprove it. Your blogs are filled with countless out of context quotes and fallacious arguments. You manipulate the truth to fit Mormonism. I suspect that what drives you to do this is your “testimony”. No matter how flawed your arguments are, they must be real because you had a “testimony” that told you Mormonism is true. Once you realize that you never had a testimony you can begin to use reason to figure out the truth.

 

[AirLiner]

Its okay, at least things are cleared up about that now.

 

[1holycatholic]

Ask too many of those difficult questions and they stop responding to you. They prefer to prey on the weak and ill informed.

They came here, to a Catholic forum. They have nothing to complain about.

 

[rmcmullan]

Actually our religion was founded by Jesus Christ (remember Matthew 16:18-19?) When you claim that it wasn’t (contrary to what Scripture says) you are engaging in a sort of “trashing”.

I don’t think the Orthodox church would consider pointing this out to be “trashing” anybody. You guys are the original Protestants before it was even cool to be one. And there have been a long series of schisms in the church that Jesus started. To say you’re the true church that Jesus really started is just repeating the teachings of, well, uh, your own church! There’s been a long line of schisms from the original church and the Roman Catholic rite is just another

The church that Jesus started had Apostles. Not popes. Not two different popes and only one of the claiming infallibility. Jesus called Apostles.