Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[xmormon]

Z is not even interested in the truth. He is only interested in keeping a few dollars for the Mormons by trying to keep some of the old members paying. Realistically some of us just started looking at the major fall of Mormonism in modern times and got a little bored with throwing truth at such a dying religion. The following facts show what effect the information age is having on honest people everywhere…

”The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: “Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ Retention has become a real focus. For you don’t need an abacus to know many members have left the building.
What happened to them?”

In the United States, Mormons are departing from the faith as fast as converts are joining. Converts rarely remain active in the Mormon Church. The official Mormon reaction to the articles stating that there are significantly less than 12 million members worldwide.

This is from a Salt Lake Tribune article Sep. 1st, 2005 quoting Merrill Bateman, a Mormon Seventy

“…He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Point: do not be afraid to aggressively help your friends see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it.

 

[hosemonkey]

I don’t think the Orthodox church would consider pointing this out to be “trashing” anybody. You guys are the original Protestants before it was even cool to be one. And there have been a long series of schisms in the church that Jesus started. To say you’re the true church that Jesus really started is just repeating the teachings of, well, uh, your own church! There’s been a long line of schisms from the original church and the Roman Catholic rite is just another

The church that Jesus started had Apostles. Not popes. Not two different popes and only one of the claiming infallibility. Jesus called Apostles.

Documentation please. I think that you need to review your early Church history. Otherwise I will be forced to conclude that you are just another mfbukowski troll.

 

[hosemonkey]

Point: do not be afraid to aggressively help your friends see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it.

That’s the problem, most mormons cannot HANDLE the truth. The cult has such a grip on their lives that it takes an extraordinary effort to get free. I believe though, that there are probably many,many “mormons” who have not set foot in a mormon “church” in years, but who remain on the rolls.

 

[AMDGtoo]

I don’t think the Orthodox church would consider pointing this out to be “trashing” anybody. You guys are the original Protestants before it was even cool to be one. And there have been a long series of schisms in the church that Jesus started. To say you’re the true church that Jesus really started is just repeating the teachings of, well, uh, your own church! There’s been a long line of schisms from the original church and the Roman Catholic rite is just another

The church that Jesus started had Apostles. Not popes. Not two different popes and only one of the claiming infallibility. Jesus called Apostles.

Actually, the Eastern Orthodox Church came into being from us in about 1054 (and some who now comprise the Eastern Catholic Rites began returning to us beginning in the 1600s–although a couple, never did separate from the original, Catholic Church.) You see, the word “Catholic” (referring to our Church) first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch in about 110 A.D. (And since we know that by his referral to it as if everyone already knew, the word “Catholic” had to already be well known as the “Catholic Church”.

You guys really should get your facts straight (since you are going to go door-to-door in an organized attempt to defraud people from their birthright and separate them from the Lord.) Oops, I forgot, you guys don’t go by facts…just feeelings–nothing more than feeellliings.

 

[Matariel]

Your signature line tells your story better than I could: “Holy saints of God pray for us”. That is a false hethen religion. We don’t pray to Mary or the saints. We pray to God. As Paul said: “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (Timothy 2:5).

zerinus

You still didn’t respond to my statements…

(Crickets chirping in background)

 

[AirLiner]

The church that Jesus started had Apostles. Not popes. Not two different popes and only one of the claiming infallibility. Jesus called Apostles.

That is an extremely weak case against the Church.

Yes, the Church that Jesus started had apostles and these apostles passed on their authorites to successors. These succesors eventually called themselves bishops which we still have today.

The Church that Jesus started did have a Pope. Jesus decided that one of his apostles should be leader of His Church. This leader also passed on his authority. The person holding this position eventually was called the pope. Since the pope is also a succesor of an apostle, he is also a bishop. The pope is the Bishop of Rome.

 

[mfbukowski]

So one day you didn’t know that Mormonism is true and the next you just knew that it was. That seems to me more like an opinion you made for yourself one day instead of previously unknown knowledge that the Holy Spirit inserted into your mind. So even though there was no “burning feeling” involved this is starting to seem like a psychological effect to me again.

I know that this post is a waste of electrons falling on blind eyes, but I have to stand up and say that this is BUNK

In priesthood leadership positions, there is no question that when advising people, I have experienced words coming into my mind that have been the exact correct things to say to change those individuals lives. I said things I was not smart enough to say.

Once I was on a 50 mile bike ride, and this person kept popping into my head, sister “x”. I stopped and hit my cell phone and called someone else about a different person we also needed to talk about. The person I called said " have you heard from sister x- she keeps popping into my mind" I said “are you kidding me? I didn’t mention her yet, but the real reason I called you was because she keeps popping into my mind!” We called sister x. No answer. We waited a half hour and called back. No answer. Neither of us was near sister x, so we called another person who went over to see sister x. She had fallen and had a broken hip and couldn’t move. Paramedics were called and she eventually was fine.

Two people, out of nowhere, thinking of the same person while that person was in trouble.

Even if this were the only instance, it would be remarkable, but it is not the only instance.

I get feelings like this probably a couple of times a week. It is not as dramatic as the example, but I OFTEN get a response like “I was just going to call you, I have a problem with…”

I often come up with ideas which I know I could not have come up with on my own in situations where I can help people.

There is no question that the Spirit of God can speak to us and teach us anything we need to know at any time we need to know it.

FYI these kind of experiences are sacred to us, and typically are not something which we would put out on the internet, etc. where they could be ridiculed. You may ridicule all you like. I know it’s true and I know that God knows that I know. All I care about is standing up for what is right.

If you think it’s all “psychological”, that is your privilege. But in reality what you are doing is cutting yourself off from the possibility that you could experience it for yourself. Go ahead.

I was a “Mormon” my entire life, though I had never studied the church until I was 30 years old. I had studied religions ideas and philosophies and found many principles I believed were true. Mormonism was the one system of thought which put it all together.

Have you ever gotten up and spoken for a half hour without a thought of what you were going to speak about, and then have people come up to you afterwards and tell you about how great the talk was, and then unfortunately you have to tell them that it wasn’t you speaking? THAT is something I could NEVER do on my own. When I joined the church, I was not happy having to even speak.

 

[mfbukowski]

That is an extremely weak case against the Church.

Yes, the Church that Jesus started had apostles and these apostles passed on their authorites to successors. These succesors eventually called themselves bishops which we still have today.

The Church that Jesus started did have a Pope. Jesus decided that one of his apostles should be leader of His Church. This leader also passed on his authority. The person holding this position eventually was called the pope. Since the pope is also a succesor of an apostle, he is also a bishop. The pope is the Bishop of Rome.

“Bishops” are bishops, Apostles are apostles. Apostles do not become bishops.

Read your NT. The lord’s annointed don’t call themselves anything. The Lord calls them what He likes

 

[AMDGtoo]

The pope is the Bishop of Rome.

And it seems that our Mormon friend doesn’t realize that “pope” (as the dictionary indicates) is from the Late Latin papa, from the Greek pappas (a child’s word for father).

Our Mormon friend doesn’t seem to realize that the office implies dynastic succession (as Isaiah 22:19-22 implies).

And it is also obvious that he doesn’t seem to know about Pope Clement (third successor to Peter as bishop of Rome after Linus and Anacletus). It seems that he was called to settle a dispute in Corinth even though John the Apostle was still alive and much closer (in Ephesus)!

And you know what I find even more dastardly–that the Mormons don’t want anyone else to know these facts either.

 

[Believe_85]

I know that this post is a waste of electrons falling on blind eyes, but I have to stand up and say that this is BUNK

In priesthood leadership positions, there is no question that when advising people, I have experienced words coming into my mind that have been the exact correct things to say to change those individuals lives. I said things I was not smart enough to say.

Once I was on a 50 mile bike ride, and this person kept popping into my head, sister “x”. I stopped and hit my cell phone and called someone else about a different person we also needed to talk about. The person I called said " have you heard from sister x- she keeps popping into my mind" I said “are you kidding me? I didn’t mention her yet, but the real reason I called you was because she keeps popping into my mind!” We called sister x. No answer. We waited a half hour and called back. No answer. Neither of us was near sister x, so we called another person who went over to see sister x. She had fallen and had a broken hip and couldn’t move. Paramedics were called and she eventually was fine.

Two people, out of nowhere, thinking of the same person while that person was in trouble.

Even if this were the only instance, it would be remarkable, but it is not the only instance.

I get feelings like this probably a couple of times a week. It is not as dramatic as the example, but I OFTEN get a response like “I was just going to call you, I have a problem with…”

I often come up with ideas which I know I could not have come up with on my own in situations where I can help people.

There is no question that the Spirit of God can speak to us and teach us anything we need to know at any time we need to know it.

FYI these kind of experiences are sacred to us, and typically are not something which we would put out on the internet, etc. where they could be ridiculed. You may ridicule all you like. I know it’s true and I know that God knows that I know. All I care about is standing up for what is right.

If you think it’s all “psychological”, that is your privilege. But in reality what you are doing is cutting yourself off from the possibility that you could experience it for yourself. Go ahead.

I was a “Mormon” my entire life, though I had never studied the church until I was 30 years old. I had studied religions ideas and philosophies and found many principles I believed were true. Mormonism was the one system of thought which put it all together.

Have you ever gotten up and spoken for a half hour without a thought of what you were going to speak about, and then have people come up to you afterwards and tell you about how great the talk was, and then unfortunately you have to tell them that it wasn’t you speaking? THAT is something I could NEVER do on my own. When I joined the church, I was not happy having to even speak.

The Holy Spirit moves through all of us, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests. God loves and blesses us all. I’m sure everyone on this forum has experienced intuition, especially those with children. I’m glad you were there for her. That tells us he exists. That does not tell us Mormonism is true.

 

[mfbukowski]

And it seems that our Mormon friend doesn’t realize that “pope” (as the dictionary indicates) is from the Late Latin papa, from the Greek pappas (a child’s word for father).

Our Mormon friend doesn’t seem to realize that the office implies dynastic succession (as Isaiah 22:19-22 implies).

And it is also obvious that he doesn’t seem to know about Pope Clement (third successor to Peter as bishop of Rome after Linus and Anacletus). It seems that he was called to settle a dispute in Corinth even though John the Apostle was still alive and much closer (in Ephesus)!

And you know what I find even more dastardly–that the Mormons don’t want anyone else to know these facts either.

AMDG You are a sweetheart, and I am sorry about all the problems with your Mormon family, but I can’t let you pass on this one

Isaiah 22:19-22

“19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down.
20 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

Come on now. The only dynasty implied here is of Kings of Judah

And Clement is only mentioned once in the New Testament. It is not clear that it is even the same Clement you are speaking of, and the scripture in which his name appears only shows that he was regarded as “on the right side” and proves nothing like what you are asserting.

We could easily argue that your Clement was an apostate leader who ignored John even though he was still alive.

From the point of view of a debate, it is your case which is not strong.

There is another scripture which says “call no one father except your father which is in heaven” or something close!

Oh and before Prodigal1 comes up with his argument “there could not have been an apostasy because John was alive”-- that proves nothing. John being alive does not prove there was no apostasy. That position is just absurd

 

[mfbukowski]

The Holy Spirit moves through all of us, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests. God loves and blesses us all. I’m sure everyone on this forum has experienced intuition, especially those with children. I’m glad you were there for her. That tells us he exists. That does not tell us Mormonism is true.

We all feel the spirit, and it CAN tell you Mormonism is true.

 

[mfbukowski]

Matt. 23: 9
“9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

 

[hosemonkey]

AMDG You are a sweetheart, and I am sorry about all the problems with your Mormon family, but I can’t let you pass on this one

Ski, your typical mormon arrogance is hanging out again. You are such a hoot, “sorry about your problems with your mormon family,” but you are so stupid and I need to set you straight." Then you quote a bunch of irrelivancies about “let no man call you father.” That subject has been beaten to death on these forums by protestants since day one and has been thoroughly answered many times. Do I need to say again that mormonism is a false religion with a crooked founder, followed by deluded people?

 

[hosemonkey]

We all feel the spirit, and it CAN tell you Mormonism is true.

The Spirit that tells you that mormonism is true is the spirit of Satan, the Adversary, not the spirit of Truth. The Evil One whispers in the ear of the weak and gullible and leads many astray. Joseph Smith was one of these, and his deluded followers will pay the price for his ignorance.

 

[mfbukowski]

Ski, your typical mormon arrogance is hanging out again. You are such a hoot, “sorry about your problems with your mormon family,” but you are so stupid and I need to set you straight." Then you quote a bunch of irrelivancies about “let no man call you father.” That subject has been beaten to death on these forums by protestants since day one and has been thoroughly answered many times. Do I need to say again that mormonism is a false religion with a crooked founder, followed by deluded people?

 

[AMDGtoo]

Come on now. The only dynasty implied here is of Kings of Judah

And Jesus was not a Davidic King–the Lion of Judah? And you didn’t notice that concept of “the keys” from Isaiah 22:19-22 sounds so similar to Matthew 16:19 plus the office of Prime Minister continued as long as the Kingdom of David continued (and Jesus is a priest-King forever on the order of Melchisedek) and the fact that the Pope is really the Prime Minister of Jesus’ Church? Even common sense has us wondering why Jesus would give such great authority to Peter if He didn’t intend it to be passed on. Surely it would be needed–especially since Jesus said that the “gates of hell would not prevail against it (the Church)”.

And about Pope Clement–look it up in the early Church Fathers or on the internet–I know I did after my daughter converted and the missionaries that came to my door sort of informed me that the Church went into a total apostasy. And BTW any public library has a complete list of Popes that clearly shows that Clement was the third successor to Peter as bishop of Rome.

 

[PaulDupre]

I get feelings like this probably a couple of times a week. It is not as dramatic as the example, but I OFTEN get a response like “I was just going to call you, I have a problem with…”

I often come up with ideas which I know I could not have come up with on my own in situations where I can help people.

You have described the promptings of the Spirit. We all get those. It has nothing to do with which religion you belong to, though in your case it may be because you were validly baptized in the Catholic Church.

 

[AirLiner]

Once I was on a 50 mile bike ride, and this person kept popping into my head, sister “x”. I stopped and hit my cell phone and called someone else about a different person we also needed to talk about. The person I called said " have you heard from sister x- she keeps popping into my mind" I said “are you kidding me? I didn’t mention her yet, but the real reason I called you was because she keeps popping into my mind!” We called sister x. No answer. We waited a half hour and called back. No answer. Neither of us was near sister x, so we called another person who went over to see sister x. She had fallen and had a broken hip and couldn’t move. Paramedics were called and she eventually was fine.

Two people, out of nowhere, thinking of the same person while that person was in trouble.

Even if this were the only instance, it would be remarkable, but it is not the only instance.

I get feelings like this probably a couple of times a week. It is not as dramatic as the example, but I OFTEN get a response like “I was just going to call you, I have a problem with…”

I often come up with ideas which I know I could not have come up with on my own in situations where I can help people.

Wow I don’t see why that couldn’t have been the Holy Spirit, but that has nothing to do with proving whether Mormonism is true or not! Im talking about your supposed “testimonies” on the validity of Mormonism not situations where the Holy Spirit calls you to help others. I’ve read that the Catholic Church does teach that the Holy Spirit works through people of other faiths. However that doesn’t mean that those faiths are true.

 

[mfbukowski]

Wow I don’t see why that couldn’t have been the Holy Spirit, but that has nothing to do with proving whether Mormonism is true or not! Im talking about your supposed “testimonies” on the validity of Mormonism not situations where the Holy Spirit calls you to help others. I’ve read that the Catholic Church does teach that the Holy Spirit works through people of other faiths. However that doesn’t mean that those faiths are true.

Describe if you would the experience of seeing the color red so that someone who was blind could know what it was like.

Describe the sound of a french horn to a person who is deaf

AHHHH you can’t do it. I guess you have never heard a french horn or seen anything red.

This is what your argument amounts to. When I see the color red, I know it. There is no doubt. I know what red is, but I cannot describe the experience.

Color blind people cannot see a certain color – is it green? Let’s say it is.

Suppose there were a website for colorblind people who insisted that green didn’t exist and was purely “psychological”

That’s how I feel here.

There are millions of people out there who have “seen green” and know it is NOT “psychological”

I don’t expect you to understand.