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alanjeddy
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Mormons need to look at what Jesus said" I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me. He who sees the Father sees me". Mormons do not believe in the sovereignty of Jesus. They believe that Jesus is the Lord of this world only.They believe that you and I can become like Jesus and have a world where we will become like Christ. Polytheism!
Time will give way to eternity for us all. We will all stand before our Lord Jesus in judgement. I will answer for my sins but thank God it won’t be as a mormon.
Time will give way to eternity for us all. We will all stand before our Lord Jesus in judgement. I will answer for my sins but thank God it won’t be as a mormon.
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tjlarsen
Guest
Below is a response from me to a family member of mine who is Mormon. After engaging in a discussion of doctrine, in which I answered all of her “questions” (read objections) about Catholicism thru proof-texting and logic and she failed to answer any of my questions. She conceded this fact and attributed it to the fact that I just know more about Catholicism than she knows about Mormonism, even though she’s been Mormon for over 10 years. Then she insisted that Mormonism is still correct because she just “knows” its true. I seem to get to this point with most of the Mormon’s I debate with.
Unfortunately, people are not converted purely thru proof-texting the Bible or thru arguments of philosophy and theology. People are ONLY converted thru their HEARTS, and every Mormon either has or will have a moment when their hearts just don’t feel right about where they are, and then they will be told that they just need to have more FAITH. So let’s talk about Faith then.
Faith is a way of knowing that implicates reason (not reason in the sense that society teaches though). Reason is really just judging an encounter against its correspondence to your heart. Mormon’s call it a Burning in the Bosom. But we also feel a sourness when something doesn’t correspond to our hearts.
Faith always starts with an encounter, it is NEVER something that we learn or study our way into, it always starts with an encounter, an encounter that is a fact.
Then that encounter has to be exceptional, not just emotional. Something is exceptional when is corresponds to the deepest needs of our heart. Exceptionality can be found in everything, when your children giggle, a sunset, a spouses love for you, all of these things are exceptional because they correspond to the needs of your heart, needs that were placed there by God as a way of calling you to Him because we are made to know and worship Him. Mormons call this correspondence a Burning in the Bosom. God could call us to him anyway that he wants but God chooses to call us to Him through created things that correspond to the needs of our hearts. Exceptionality is different than emotion, but exceptionality can be emotional. Emotions are things that happen to us, for examples when your children giggle you probably experience joy. But at the same time many people experience joy by drinking or shopping or looking at pornography. The emotion of joy is not a way of knowing if something is good. Only when the fact is judged by its correspondence to our heart can we know if it is true and therefore good. ALL emotions must be judges by how they correspond to the needs of our hearts. For example, even though drinking or pornography may bring some people joy, when they judge these things by how they correspond to their hearts, they do not correspond and therefore are not good or exceptional and deep down we feel that.
Faith in Christ begins to differ from normal faith in that it gives us a sense of Wonder. He is beyond our understanding and corresponds to our heart so much more than anything else that we are left in a sense of wonder.
This leads us to the next element of Faith in Christ. We ask ourselves, “Who is this Man?” “How can He be true?” This poses the problem of faith. Some say “Yes” and some say “No” when presented with the same fact: Christ.
Which brings us to the the final point: The only truly human response before any fact is to fulfill the desires of ones heart, in other words to search for God
to be continued in another post…
Unfortunately, people are not converted purely thru proof-texting the Bible or thru arguments of philosophy and theology. People are ONLY converted thru their HEARTS, and every Mormon either has or will have a moment when their hearts just don’t feel right about where they are, and then they will be told that they just need to have more FAITH. So let’s talk about Faith then.
Faith is a way of knowing that implicates reason (not reason in the sense that society teaches though). Reason is really just judging an encounter against its correspondence to your heart. Mormon’s call it a Burning in the Bosom. But we also feel a sourness when something doesn’t correspond to our hearts.
Faith always starts with an encounter, it is NEVER something that we learn or study our way into, it always starts with an encounter, an encounter that is a fact.
Then that encounter has to be exceptional, not just emotional. Something is exceptional when is corresponds to the deepest needs of our heart. Exceptionality can be found in everything, when your children giggle, a sunset, a spouses love for you, all of these things are exceptional because they correspond to the needs of your heart, needs that were placed there by God as a way of calling you to Him because we are made to know and worship Him. Mormons call this correspondence a Burning in the Bosom. God could call us to him anyway that he wants but God chooses to call us to Him through created things that correspond to the needs of our hearts. Exceptionality is different than emotion, but exceptionality can be emotional. Emotions are things that happen to us, for examples when your children giggle you probably experience joy. But at the same time many people experience joy by drinking or shopping or looking at pornography. The emotion of joy is not a way of knowing if something is good. Only when the fact is judged by its correspondence to our heart can we know if it is true and therefore good. ALL emotions must be judges by how they correspond to the needs of our hearts. For example, even though drinking or pornography may bring some people joy, when they judge these things by how they correspond to their hearts, they do not correspond and therefore are not good or exceptional and deep down we feel that.
Faith in Christ begins to differ from normal faith in that it gives us a sense of Wonder. He is beyond our understanding and corresponds to our heart so much more than anything else that we are left in a sense of wonder.
This leads us to the next element of Faith in Christ. We ask ourselves, “Who is this Man?” “How can He be true?” This poses the problem of faith. Some say “Yes” and some say “No” when presented with the same fact: Christ.
Which brings us to the the final point: The only truly human response before any fact is to fulfill the desires of ones heart, in other words to search for God
to be continued in another post…
T
tjlarsen
Guest
…continued
Now let us assume that all of the things we disagree upon are true, we both know that they can’t both be true but for now let’s assume that they are.
Now slow down and actually think about each of the items I am going to list, and I will alternate LDS then Catholic, and ask yourself how each one corresponds to your heart. Throughout the exercise remember the examples of your children giggling, a sunset, your spouses love for you, that first time you came to believe in Christ and how those things are exceptional because of how you judge them by their correspondence to your heart. The burning (or sourness) in your bosom to use a Mormon term. Keep in mind that we have to assume that each of these statement are true, both the Mormon and the Catholic, and remember that this isn’t an argument about doctrine, people aren’t converted by doctrine, but by their hearts.
to be continued…
Now let us assume that all of the things we disagree upon are true, we both know that they can’t both be true but for now let’s assume that they are.
Now slow down and actually think about each of the items I am going to list, and I will alternate LDS then Catholic, and ask yourself how each one corresponds to your heart. Throughout the exercise remember the examples of your children giggling, a sunset, your spouses love for you, that first time you came to believe in Christ and how those things are exceptional because of how you judge them by their correspondence to your heart. The burning (or sourness) in your bosom to use a Mormon term. Keep in mind that we have to assume that each of these statement are true, both the Mormon and the Catholic, and remember that this isn’t an argument about doctrine, people aren’t converted by doctrine, but by their hearts.
to be continued…
T
tjlarsen
Guest
LDS - Jesus built his church on 12 men, that he chose and filled with the Holy Spirit, and promised that the gates of hell couldn’t ever overcome, but they were too weak and the Holy Spirit was too weak So Christ’s chosen men, whom he gave the Holy Spirit to sustain, and his promise was too weak to sustain HIS church, HIS body. So HIS church, HIS body fell to Satin and all of the billions of people who lived from 100 ad through 1800 ad were without Christ. Stop and examine your heart. What if the Apostacy is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Christ’s built his church on 12 men that he chose, blessed with the Holy Spirit, promised that hell would never overcome. That Church, HIS body, withstood the test of time, the tests of the devil (even in the highest ranks of the church), that the Holy Spirit and Christ’s promise and prayer were strong enough and all of the billions of people who lived from 100 AD through 1800 AD, had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and believe and that he never abandoned us despite the wickedness of a few. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - That there were originally 11 witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon, but 8 of the witnesses later denied the Plates ever existed. And all 3 of the witnesses who continued the claim were in Joseph’s immediate family. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - There were originally 12 apostles and all but one were martyred for their beliefs and the only one that wasn’t killed was banished to the island of Patmos until death. Also, tradition holds that almost every Popes for the first 500 years of the Catholic Church was martyred for their faith. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - Again, remember the difference between the practice of individuals and the teachings of a church, this was a Teaching of the LDS church. “I understand the law of celestial marriage (polygamy) to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less . . .” (Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses20:31 [1878]). “Celestial marriage” refers to polygamy. Twelve years later, the Mormon prophet officially “suspended” plural marriage. A practice once proclaimed crucial for salvation now would merit its proponents excommunication. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does polygamy inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Also, consider the fact that an act that was considered essential to salvation was changed to an act that deserved damnation only 12 years later. What is going to change next? How do you know polygamy isn’t going to be declared essential for salvation again? Does that inconsistence inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Child abuse was the actions of individuals in the church, not a teaching of the Catholic Church. First you should know that celibacy is not a dogmatic doctrine (something that has to be believed to be considered Catholic), but rather a discipline of the Latin-Rite. Many other Catholic rites, including the Marionite Rite Catholic Church, allow their priests to be married and they are still in full communion with Rome. Now consider the fact that Latin-Rite Catholic priests love their congregation (me and you if you became Catholic) so much that they set themselves apart for the sole purpose of serving God and sheparding their flock with their whole strength. Now, stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the priesthood and the keys thereof” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:290-291) Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Throughout all of history the Catholic Church has had priests, bishops and cardinals of all kinds of nationalities because it has always taught that ALL men are made in the images of God. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - Jesus established not just one Church but two (Middle East and South America) and both were completely destroyed by the world because the foundations laid by Christ weren’t strong enough and God wouldn’t come to their aid. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Jesus loved the world SO much that he left a miraculous Sacriment where His real Body and Blood is ever present through His one eternal sacrifice and his unending love for us so that those who believe in Him can be joined to Him, both spiritually and physically, throughout history. How does that correspond to your heart? Stop and examine your heart. What if the Eucharist is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Christ’s built his church on 12 men that he chose, blessed with the Holy Spirit, promised that hell would never overcome. That Church, HIS body, withstood the test of time, the tests of the devil (even in the highest ranks of the church), that the Holy Spirit and Christ’s promise and prayer were strong enough and all of the billions of people who lived from 100 AD through 1800 AD, had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and believe and that he never abandoned us despite the wickedness of a few. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - That there were originally 11 witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon, but 8 of the witnesses later denied the Plates ever existed. And all 3 of the witnesses who continued the claim were in Joseph’s immediate family. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - There were originally 12 apostles and all but one were martyred for their beliefs and the only one that wasn’t killed was banished to the island of Patmos until death. Also, tradition holds that almost every Popes for the first 500 years of the Catholic Church was martyred for their faith. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - Again, remember the difference between the practice of individuals and the teachings of a church, this was a Teaching of the LDS church. “I understand the law of celestial marriage (polygamy) to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less . . .” (Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses20:31 [1878]). “Celestial marriage” refers to polygamy. Twelve years later, the Mormon prophet officially “suspended” plural marriage. A practice once proclaimed crucial for salvation now would merit its proponents excommunication. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does polygamy inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Also, consider the fact that an act that was considered essential to salvation was changed to an act that deserved damnation only 12 years later. What is going to change next? How do you know polygamy isn’t going to be declared essential for salvation again? Does that inconsistence inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Child abuse was the actions of individuals in the church, not a teaching of the Catholic Church. First you should know that celibacy is not a dogmatic doctrine (something that has to be believed to be considered Catholic), but rather a discipline of the Latin-Rite. Many other Catholic rites, including the Marionite Rite Catholic Church, allow their priests to be married and they are still in full communion with Rome. Now consider the fact that Latin-Rite Catholic priests love their congregation (me and you if you became Catholic) so much that they set themselves apart for the sole purpose of serving God and sheparding their flock with their whole strength. Now, stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the priesthood and the keys thereof” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:290-291) Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Throughout all of history the Catholic Church has had priests, bishops and cardinals of all kinds of nationalities because it has always taught that ALL men are made in the images of God. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
LDS - Jesus established not just one Church but two (Middle East and South America) and both were completely destroyed by the world because the foundations laid by Christ weren’t strong enough and God wouldn’t come to their aid. Stop and examine your heart. What if this is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
Catholic - Jesus loved the world SO much that he left a miraculous Sacriment where His real Body and Blood is ever present through His one eternal sacrifice and his unending love for us so that those who believe in Him can be joined to Him, both spiritually and physically, throughout history. How does that correspond to your heart? Stop and examine your heart. What if the Eucharist is true, what kind of love is that. Does this inspire a burning in your bosom or a sourness?
T
tjlarsen
Guest
If you quickly read through that exercise, I pray that you read through it again, taking the time to actually listen to your heart and how it corresponds to each statement. If Mormonism is true, then you have nothing to fear.
Keeping in mind that every church has examples of bad individuals and groups, I encourage you to listen to your heart about everything that any church TEACHES including the LDS church. Never be told not to question any churches teachings including mine or yours and always measure their TEACHING according to how it corresponds to your heart.
For more, read Father Luigi Guissani’s “Is it Possible to Live This Way? Vol. 1 - Faith”.
In Christ.
Tim
Keeping in mind that every church has examples of bad individuals and groups, I encourage you to listen to your heart about everything that any church TEACHES including the LDS church. Never be told not to question any churches teachings including mine or yours and always measure their TEACHING according to how it corresponds to your heart.
For more, read Father Luigi Guissani’s “Is it Possible to Live This Way? Vol. 1 - Faith”.
In Christ.
Tim
H
hosemonkey
Guest
If you quickly read through that exercise, I pray that you read through it again, taking the time to actually listen to your heart and how it corresponds to each statement. If Mormonism is true, then you have nothing to fear.
Well written, well said.Keeping in mind that every church has examples of bad individuals and groups, I encourage you to listen to your heart about everything that any church TEACHES including the LDS church. Never be told not to question any churches teachings including mine or yours and always measure their TEACHING according to how it corresponds to your heart.
One can only hope that mormons could break that cult-like blindness that keeps them from the truth.
T
tjlarsen
Guest
Don’t just hope, ask God in prayer.
Tim
Tim
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