G
guanophore
Guest
This is great Iggy. I am going to save this in the archives!
- Status
F
fhansen
Guest
Amen! I already did that, in fact!This is great Iggy. I am going to save this in the archives!
M
Miriam1947
Guest
What is saving in the archives?
F
fhansen
Guest
We appreciated Ignatius’ post enough to save it in our own archives.
M
Miriam1947
Guest
I copied and pasted his post into a word document. Is that what you mean?We appreciated Ignatius’ post enough to save it in our own archives.
Why do I feel so dumb?
F
fhansen
Guest
That’s not dumb!!! Anyway, yes, we’re just saving it, as you did. I have files of favorite bible verses, catechism citations, quotes from Augustine, Aquinas, Pope Benedict, St Basil, etc, etc, usually for the purpose of apologetics, for whatever my efforts might be worth.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
SAINT PAUL COULD LOSE HIS SALVATION
2 Timothy 1:12
“and therefore I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.”
But we must remain in His protective care by persevering in faith so that we might receive the reward that He is guarding for us.
2 Timothy 4:18 KJV
“And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.”
2 Timothy 4:18 RSV
“The Lord will rescue me from every evil and save “save” - Greek word 4982 ] me for his heavenly kingdom.”
Matthew 24:12-13
“And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures “endures” - Greek word 5278, sometimes translated as “perseveres” ] to the end will be saved. RSV
We know that God will do His part, and we can have a moral assurance that we will “endure” or “persevere” to the end, but other passages that I will point out show that it is possible that we will not.
2 Timothy 4:8
“From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.”
As his earthly life comes to a end he speaks of the “crown” and he gives the reason why he will receive it. It is because he has “kept the faith,” but the implication is that if he had not persevered in his faith he would have lost his crown, his salvation. Matthew 24:13 “… the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.”
Saint Paul does speak of the crown of righteousness which he will receive, but this is spoken of only just before he is about to be martyred, after he has “finished the race.” He speaks this way in order to encourage others to persevere in their faith and hope in Christ.
2 Timothy 1:16-17
“May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - ”
2 Timothy 4:6-8
“For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.”
Saint Paul clearly states that he could lose his salvation.
We know that Saint Paul is a Christian (see Galatians 2:19-20), but even he points out how he could lose his salvation if he were to turn from the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Saint Paul says “ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” RSV
However, some people will contest that the word “disqualified” refers to Paul loosing his extra merit and glory and does not refer to Paul loosing his salvation. So, the key is to prove what this word means. The word “disqualified” is translated from the Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (Strong’s # 96.) Saint Paul makes the meaning of this word clear in his second letter to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? —unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” RSV
Here Saint Paul uses the same Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (#96), except here, in English, it is translated as “fail.” The context is clear. It refers to people who are spiritually lost and without the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
So, the question we must ask is, “What is lost in 1 Cor 9:27 ?” This word “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any reward that Saint Paul might have received, rather it modifies Saint Paul himself. 1 Corinthians 9:27 “ … lest … I myself should be disqualified (ADOKIMOS).” Therefore, St. Paul is speaking in 1 Cor 9:27 above how he could lose his salvation.
In summary, these three observations are unmistakable.
Observation 1:
Saint Paul is a Christian and already has saving grace.
See Galatians 2:19-20.
Observation 2:
The Greek word “ADOKIMOS" (Strong’s # 96.) refers to someone who is spiritually lost and does not have saving grace.
See 2 Corinthians 13:5 above.
Observation 3:
Saint Paul points out that this condition could apply to him if he turns from the Gospel. See 1 Corinthians 9:27.
We must ask, “What does “ADOKIMOS” modify ?” “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any “rewards” that Saint Paul might have received. “ADOKIMOS” modifies Saint Paul himself.
1 Corinthians 9:27
“ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (“ADOKIMOS”).” RSV
CONCLUSION
Therefore, Salvation can be lost. A true security can be found, not by trusting in our own determination that our own faith is the true kind, but rather trusting in the Love of our Father in Heaven to faithfully guide His Church, and by trusting in the Truth of Promises of Jesus Christ, and by trusting in the Power of the Holy Spirit to effect those Promises.
More Resources
Our faith should not be in our own estimation of the validity of our faith, but rather our faith should be in the Promises, or Oaths, of Jesus Christ. “Sacrament” comes from the Latin word “sacramentum” which means an oath. An oath is a promise that relies on God’s strength and power.
defendingthebride.com/mo/salvation.html#paul:)
2 Timothy 1:12
“and therefore I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.”
But we must remain in His protective care by persevering in faith so that we might receive the reward that He is guarding for us.
2 Timothy 4:18 KJV
“And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.”
2 Timothy 4:18 RSV
“The Lord will rescue me from every evil and save “save” - Greek word 4982 ] me for his heavenly kingdom.”
Matthew 24:12-13
“And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures “endures” - Greek word 5278, sometimes translated as “perseveres” ] to the end will be saved. RSV
We know that God will do His part, and we can have a moral assurance that we will “endure” or “persevere” to the end, but other passages that I will point out show that it is possible that we will not.
2 Timothy 4:8
“From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.”
As his earthly life comes to a end he speaks of the “crown” and he gives the reason why he will receive it. It is because he has “kept the faith,” but the implication is that if he had not persevered in his faith he would have lost his crown, his salvation. Matthew 24:13 “… the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.”
Saint Paul does speak of the crown of righteousness which he will receive, but this is spoken of only just before he is about to be martyred, after he has “finished the race.” He speaks this way in order to encourage others to persevere in their faith and hope in Christ.
2 Timothy 1:16-17
“May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - ”
2 Timothy 4:6-8
“For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.”
Saint Paul clearly states that he could lose his salvation.
We know that Saint Paul is a Christian (see Galatians 2:19-20), but even he points out how he could lose his salvation if he were to turn from the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Saint Paul says “ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” RSV
However, some people will contest that the word “disqualified” refers to Paul loosing his extra merit and glory and does not refer to Paul loosing his salvation. So, the key is to prove what this word means. The word “disqualified” is translated from the Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (Strong’s # 96.) Saint Paul makes the meaning of this word clear in his second letter to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? —unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” RSV
Here Saint Paul uses the same Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (#96), except here, in English, it is translated as “fail.” The context is clear. It refers to people who are spiritually lost and without the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
So, the question we must ask is, “What is lost in 1 Cor 9:27 ?” This word “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any reward that Saint Paul might have received, rather it modifies Saint Paul himself. 1 Corinthians 9:27 “ … lest … I myself should be disqualified (ADOKIMOS).” Therefore, St. Paul is speaking in 1 Cor 9:27 above how he could lose his salvation.
In summary, these three observations are unmistakable.
Observation 1:
Saint Paul is a Christian and already has saving grace.
See Galatians 2:19-20.
Observation 2:
The Greek word “ADOKIMOS" (Strong’s # 96.) refers to someone who is spiritually lost and does not have saving grace.
See 2 Corinthians 13:5 above.
Observation 3:
Saint Paul points out that this condition could apply to him if he turns from the Gospel. See 1 Corinthians 9:27.
We must ask, “What does “ADOKIMOS” modify ?” “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any “rewards” that Saint Paul might have received. “ADOKIMOS” modifies Saint Paul himself.
1 Corinthians 9:27
“ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (“ADOKIMOS”).” RSV
CONCLUSION
Therefore, Salvation can be lost. A true security can be found, not by trusting in our own determination that our own faith is the true kind, but rather trusting in the Love of our Father in Heaven to faithfully guide His Church, and by trusting in the Truth of Promises of Jesus Christ, and by trusting in the Power of the Holy Spirit to effect those Promises.
More Resources
Our faith should not be in our own estimation of the validity of our faith, but rather our faith should be in the Promises, or Oaths, of Jesus Christ. “Sacrament” comes from the Latin word “sacramentum” which means an oath. An oath is a promise that relies on God’s strength and power.
defendingthebride.com/mo/salvation.html#paul:)
M
Miriam1947
Guest
Thanks. I do that all the time too.
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
This passage from 2 Peter 2:20-21 is telling:
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
This really speaks to the mortal sin of turning away from Jesus and becoming entangled again in the “defilement of the world”. You would be in a worse position than if you had never known the Lord in the first place. Why? Because God judges you on what you know, not what you don’t know. Remember for a sin to be mortal you must have full knowledge (in addition to complete consent and grave matter) Those who have escaped the defilements of the world (sin) through our Lord Jesus Christ KNOW better. This is one passage that keeps me on the straight and narrow
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
This really speaks to the mortal sin of turning away from Jesus and becoming entangled again in the “defilement of the world”. You would be in a worse position than if you had never known the Lord in the first place. Why? Because God judges you on what you know, not what you don’t know. Remember for a sin to be mortal you must have full knowledge (in addition to complete consent and grave matter) Those who have escaped the defilements of the world (sin) through our Lord Jesus Christ KNOW better. This is one passage that keeps me on the straight and narrow
I am not a proponent of OSAS /perseverence of the saints, but I don’t think this accurately represents their teaching. They teach repentence, and “go and sin no more”. They teach obedience of His word. In fact,when coupled with limited atonement, it seems like a rather scary prospect, but it is best to let them speak for themselves, ISTM.
Jon
B
Begbie_123
Guest
Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God’s grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.
Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God’s grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.
Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.
1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.
1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.
1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit “expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.
1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.
1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).
Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.
Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.
Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.
Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.
Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.
Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.
Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.
Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.
James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.
1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.
2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.
2 Peter 1:10 – we must be zealous to confirm our call and election; for if we do this we will never fall. But Peter is saying that it is possible to fall, without zeal and perseverance.
2 Peter 2:15 – forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. They had the right way, and then chose to forsake it.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.
2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.
1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.
1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.
1 John 2:19 - “they left, but didn’t not belong to us” refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.
1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don’t shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.
2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.
Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?
Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?
Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.
1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.
1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.
1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit “expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.
1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.
1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).
Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.
Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.
Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.
Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.
Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.
Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.
Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.
Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.
James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.
1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.
2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.
2 Peter 1:10 – we must be zealous to confirm our call and election; for if we do this we will never fall. But Peter is saying that it is possible to fall, without zeal and perseverance.
2 Peter 2:15 – forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. They had the right way, and then chose to forsake it.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.
2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.
1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.
1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.
1 John 2:19 - “they left, but didn’t not belong to us” refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.
1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don’t shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.
2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.
Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?
Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?
Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
I Have Been Saved (past event)
Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)
Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.
Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.
I Am Being Saved (present event)
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.
Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.
1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.
I Will Be Saved (future event)
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?
1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.
Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.
James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.
Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)
Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.
Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.
I Am Being Saved (present event)
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.
Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.
1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.
I Will Be Saved (future event)
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?
1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.
Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.
James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
I Save (by participating in Christ’s salvific work)
Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ’s work of salvation.
1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ’s salvific work.
1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.
1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.
James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.
Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ’s atonement through our love and faith.
Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ’s work of salvation.
1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ’s salvific work.
1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.
1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.
James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.
Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ’s atonement through our love and faith.
B
Begbie_123
Guest
Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
P
PoorKnight
Guest
Brother Jon,
In fairness, I have not heard either Tim Staples or Steve Ray state that their upbringing advised anything but “go and sin no more” and adherence to [their personal interpretation of] Scripture - nor did I imply anything to the contrary.
However it is also taught - and I’ve verified this with OSAS advocates - that if you sin (any kind of sin) it doesn’t matter. According to this belief Christ paid the price for your sins past, present and future. According to the OSAS proponents, you can commit any sin, die in the act or immediately after and still go to heaven once you have said the “sinner’s prayer”.
Again, that is a VERY scary thing to teach a teenaged boy.
I hope that clarifies my post a bit.
God Bless
E
ericc
Guest
You are not guaranteed heaven/salvation till Judgement day. Who can know for sure one can persevere (remain in God’s friendship) till the end? So how can you lost something which you are not sure you still have it at the end of the journey?
In real life, how often have we heard “friends forever” that didn’t last?
Thanks, it does. To be honest, I find it difficult to defend these basically Calvinist theologies. I wish more proponents of this theology were here to defend it. It would make for lively discussion.Brother Jon,
In fairness, I have not heard either Tim Staples or Steve Ray state that their upbringing advised anything but “go and sin no more” and adherence to [their personal interpretation of] Scripture - nor did I imply anything to the contrary.
However it is also taught - and I’ve verified this with OSAS advocates - that if you sin (any kind of sin) it doesn’t matter. According to this belief Christ paid the price for your sins past, present and future. According to the OSAS proponents, you can commit any sin, die in the act or immediately after and still go to heaven once you have said the “sinner’s prayer”.
Again, that is a VERY scary thing to teach a teenaged boy.
I hope that clarifies my post a bit.
God Bless
Jon
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