Where in the bible does it INARGUEABLELY show that after we die we are alive (ie. the saints can hear us,etc)

[peso73]

Where in the bible does it inargueablely state that the “dead” or those “asleep in the Lord”, are not asleep but in fact alive and aware of us, and our prayers,etc…I used to have materials that showed quotes indicating that in the bible, but have lost the material.
This would be to answer those that disregard sacred Tradition, and apparantly any writings of the church fathers are irrelevant to them as well; those that accuse us of necromancy for praying to saints for their prayers or assistance or whatever, never mind all the other accusations that come along with those.
I think the transfiguration they might say was a vision for the apostles to understand Christ’s role in relation to the law and the prophets, maybe and not actually Abraham and Moses themselves…and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, a story to illustate a point, etc…I know there’s that part in Revelations about a “cloud of witnesses” but they could argue the cloud is comprised of angels…and it mentions the prayers of the saints, but…any hardcore quotes?

 

[mschrank]

Read Jesus’s answer to the Sadducees.

“I AM the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob”. He explains it pretty well.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Who are the witnesses who surround us in Hebrews 12:1?

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Peso, you and I are alive and I can shout at the top of my lungs and you can’t hear me.

Isaiah 33:17
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Hebrews 12:1-3 is simply talking about the testimony of their lives ( from Hebrews 11 ) that they lived on earth.

Rev 6, speaks of the souls under the altar, who are immature but praying.

Even as a protestant who does not believe that they in heaven can see, nor hear us; I have to admit that people in heaven will likely pray for loved ones that they remember ( Luke 16 ), and could gain information from those who have recently died themselves, and maybe a visiting guardian angel from time to time.

 

[Ignatius]

Where in the bible does it inargueablely state that the “dead” or those “asleep in the Lord”,

It says God is a God of the living, not of the dead!

Now your turn. Please answer these two questions:

Where in the bible does it inarguable and incontravertably state that there is any such thing as “soul sleep”?

Are there tall men on Jupiter?

 

[JMBNH]

1 Samuel Chapter 28 comes to mind, though may not help you argue against the necromancy claim would show that people are still conscious.

I would say 2 Maccabees where Onias and Jeremiah appear to Judas Maccabeus but can’t see evangelicals going for that somehow

 

[guanophore]

Where in the bible does it inargueablely state that the “dead” or those “asleep in the Lord”, are not asleep but in fact alive and aware of us, and our prayers,etc…

Don’t be ridiculuous. People can, and have, argued everything in the Bible.

Did you ever notice how Saul conjured up the Spirit of Samuel?

1 Sam 28:15-19

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am’alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

If the dead are asleep, and don’t know what is going on, how did Samuel know?

This would be to answer those that disregard sacred Tradition, and apparantly any writings of the church fathers are irrelevant to them as well; those that accuse us of necromancy for praying to saints for their prayers or assistance or whatever, never mind all the other accusations that come along with those.

Those who are in Christ are “alive forevermore”. Jesus clearly states he is not the God of the dead, but of the living:

Mark 12:24-27

24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

I think the transfiguration they might say was a vision for the apostles to understand Christ’s role in relation to the law and the prophets, maybe and not actually Abraham and Moses themselves…

That may be, but it ignores the plain meaning of the text:

Mark 9:4
4 And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.

and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, a story to illustate a point, etc…

Yes, but how do you know it is not a true story? Can you find any of Jesus’ parables that is not?

I know there’s that part in Revelations about a “cloud of witnesses” but they could argue the cloud is comprised of angels…and it mentions the prayers of the saints, but…any hardcore quotes?

The cloud of witnesesses is in Hebrews. Read chapter 11 to see who is in the cloud.

In heaven, it is the elders and saints worshipping along with the angels. This is the communion of saints.

 

[cor5755]

Best example I know of is Luke 16 19-31, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Both die and the rich man is not only able to see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham , but can also talk to them,while the rich man is suffering in hell. The rich man asks for a drop of water and then asks Abraham to intercede for the sake of his brothers, so that they don’t suffer like him in hell. I cannot see how anyone could read this and not see life after mortal death and the power of intercessory prayer.

 

[Leopard]

Where in the bible does it inargueablely state that the “dead” or those “asleep in the Lord”, are not asleep but in fact alive and aware of us, and our prayers,etc…

It depends on how long one intends to keep arguing. Several good references have already been cited. You posted a few yourself.

 

[IrishAm]

Nowhere. Every Truth of God can be, and usually is, argued by someone.

What was the line at the end of the old movie “Song of Bernadette”? Something to the effect of “For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.”

 

[peso73]

It says God is a God of the living, not of the dead!

Now your turn. Please answer these two questions:

Where in the bible does it inarguable and incontravertably state that there is any such thing as “soul sleep”?

Are there tall men on Jupiter?

Tall men on Jupiter? I don’t know where in the bible it says incontravertably there is such a state as “soul sleep” ! I just read some thing on some site that had “WARNING - CATHOLIC LINKS!” with flashing 666s on either side :doh2:
It had "click here to find out what REALLY HAPPENS after you die, which I did not, but from the overall site content and a 7th day adventist mention at the end I figured that was where this he was coming from ~ the perspective of we die, and we are dead period, until the resurrection at the end of time…
so…I was looking for some scripture verses supporting the catholic view that the folks after the resurrection who die here on earth proceed immediatly to their personal judgement, and if they are in heaven, could here our prayers and petitions for their prayers,etc…

 

[peso73]

Don’t be ridiculuous. People can, and have, argued everything in the Bible.

Did you ever notice how Saul conjured up the Spirit of Samuel?

1 Sam 28:15-19

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am’alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

If the dead are asleep, and don’t know what is going on, how did Samuel know?

Those who are in Christ are “alive forevermore”. Jesus clearly states he is not the God of the dead, but of the living:

Mark 12:24-27

24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

That may be, but it ignores the plain meaning of the text:

Mark 9:4
4 And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.

Yes, but how do you know it is not a true story? Can you find any of Jesus’ parables that is not?

The cloud of witnesesses is in Hebrews. Read chapter 11 to see who is in the cloud.

In heaven, it is the elders and saints worshipping along with the angels. This is the communion of saints.

OK There you go, huh! I forgot about that part from the O.T. so often quoted by these sects…Then how do these people back up their doctrines by the scripture…what can be going through their minds when they read these things? I can see them arguing all Jesus’ parables are stories intended to teach a moral or theological lesson or something like that, but that part w/ Samuel seems pretty straightforward…oh, and thanks for all the references!

 

[ryanoneil]

Are those in heaven part of the body of Christ? Yes!

1 Cor. 12:26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

That doesn’t sound like the description of sleeping dead people to me.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[drforjc]

Hebrews 12:22-23

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
RSV-CE

 

[FCEGM]

“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[guanophore]

so…I was looking for some scripture verses supporting the catholic view that the folks after the resurrection who die here on earth proceed immediatly to their personal judgement, and if they are in heaven, could here our prayers and petitions for their prayers,etc…

Is this Catholic Teaching? It is “appointed unto man once to die, and after that, the judgement”, but there is a judgement on the last day…

 

[inthecloud]

Do not forget the deuterocanonicals.
The whole Book of Wisdom and of course Maccabees 1 and 2 argues against soul sleep.
Add them the Mischná, the Talmud, the Kabbalah and the Early Church Fathers.

 

[tm30]

I don’t know how much clearer it gets than this:

Acts 9:36-40

And in Joppe there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. 37 And it came to pass in those days that she was sick, and died. Whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. 38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppe, the disciples hearing that Peter was there, sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not be slack to come unto them. And Peter rising up, went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber. And all the widows stood about him weeping, and shewing him the coats and garments which Dorcas made them.
And they all being put forth, Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up.

You can throw in Jesus’ raising of Lazarus at the sound of His voice for good measure, too.

 

[tm30]

Even as a protestant who does not believe that they in heaven can see, nor hear us; I have to admit that people in heaven will likely pray for loved ones that they remember

Daniel:

How do you account for the Scripture relating Peter’s raising of Tabitha at the command of his voice? Are you going to say she wasn’t really dead?

 

[tm30]

Is this Catholic Teaching? It is “appointed unto man once to die, and after that, the judgement”, but there is a judgement on the last day…

Particular judgment, i.e., you alone in front of Jesus, occurs at your death. If you receive the reward of eternal life, you are not subject to the final, general judgment of the wicked at the end, wherein they will suffer the eternal death.