Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?

[Peter_J]

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?” does it cause us to lose credibility? I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are.

 

[ralphinal]

I have asked this before and never gotten an answer. I would also love to couple the question “Where does it say that you can split the Church because of political or social issues?”

I have never seen it where you can rebel. I have never seen it where it says, if they fire your favorit pastor, start a new church. I must be missing something.

 

[Nickkname]

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?” does it cause us to lose credibility? I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are.

Wouldn’t you just be stating the truth? I don’t understand how it’d make you lose your credibility.

On a related note, if you were discussing this with a non-Catholic Christian, I assume for him/her you would have to explain that you mean the Catholic Church, than explain why the Church of Christ subsides in the Catholic Church, in order for them to understand exactly what you mean. Unless they already know this, of course.

 

[Hisalone]

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?” does it cause us to lose credibility? I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are.

Where in the bible does it authorize the selling of indulgences?
Where in the bible does it authorize the selling of clerical positions?
Where in the bible does it authorize that the church tax the state?
Where in the bible does it forbid people to read the bible?
Where in the bible does it authorize the pope to set up princes and kings and involve themselves in the affairs of state?
Where in the bible does it authorize anyone to teach a different gospel?

 

[Publisher]

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?” does it cause us to lose credibility? I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are.

Protestants do not rebel against the authority of the Church which Jesus established…we simply do not believe that authority resides in the Catholic Church…or the Orthodox Church…the same question you have asked has been asked of Catholics by Orthodox…we believe differently than you do what constitutes the Church…you cannot impose YOUR beliefs on what the Church entails upon US as they are different.

The Church are those whom Christ has redeemed, it is composed of those who walk in newness of life. It is visible when two or three are gathered together in His name through faith in His work…it is invisible in that members are found in each faith community, there is only One Church, One Body, One Baptism…it’s membership is not determined by adherance to doctrine and dogmas determined by an institutional heirarchy, it’s membership is drawn together into newness of Life by the Holy Spirit, he makes us One out many.

 

[Mudcat]

Hi Peter,

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?”

I don’t think you will find any Scripture that supports that rebelling against God, is smart or correct. It seems your question may be addressing people of other Christian faiths…and I felt inclined to respond. I would submit two Scriptures, that address false teachers.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

From what I can gather, this passage seems to be saying there shall be false prophets and teachers that some will follow. It certainly doesn’t seem to be condoning the activity. I suppose its one of those verses you could flip flop anyway you wanted to make your point…but it came to mind. In that, in it, is set a precedent to hold the teacher under the scrutiny of God’s word.
A passage from Isaiha reinforces the point.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Though I am afraid the case could be made, that there have been people throughout time who have claimed the name of Christ and falsely taught. Hopefully, this won’t be taking as an sort of personal affront, such is not my intention.

does it cause us to lose credibility?

No doubt, the plethora of religions surrounding Christ, does not lend itself towards a view of continuity, at least from an view as one Christian faith looking at another. But how does the non-Christian world perceive Christianity at large, is an excellent question…though I believe my bias on the subject would exclude me from any logical judgment

What do you think?

Respectfully,

Mudcat.

 

[Peter_J]

Protestants do not rebel against the authority of the Church which Jesus established…we simply do not believe that authority resides in the Catholic Church…or the Orthodox Church…the same question you have asked has been asked of Catholics by Orthodox…we believe differently than you do what constitutes the Church…you cannot impose YOUR beliefs on what the Church entails upon US as they are different.

The Church are those whom Christ has redeemed, it is composed of those who walk in newness of life. It is visible when two or three are gathered together in His name through faith in His work…it is invisible in that members are found in each faith community, there is only One Church, One Body, One Baptism…it’s membership is not determined by adherance to doctrine and dogmas determined by an institutional heirarchy, it’s membership is drawn together into newness of Life by the Holy Spirit, he makes us One out many.

Publisher,

I don’t agree with what you said, but I do acknowledge that it’s what most Protestants believe.

 

[Peter_J]

Perhaps it would help if I explain my motivation a little:

When Protestants ask us (Catholics) questions like “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to worship Mary?” that, in my opinion, causes Protestants to lose credibility in our eyes.

So what I’m wondering is, does this go the other way too, like when Catholics say to Protestants “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?”

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have asked this before and never gotten an answer. I would also love to couple the question “Where does it say that you can split the Church because of political or social issues?”

I have never seen it where you can rebel. I have never seen it where it says, if they fire your favorit pastor, start a new church. I must be missing something.

I also posted this question before but I never really got an answer.

 

[stbruno]

You know as a cradle Catholic, maybe I will ask those door knockers to show me that in their translations of the bible. Very clever argument. Ask them a twister. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Protestants do not rebel against the authority of the Church which Jesus established…we simply do not believe that authority resides in the Catholic Church…or the Orthodox Church…the same question you have asked has been asked of Catholics by Orthodox…we believe differently than you do what constitutes the Church…you cannot impose YOUR beliefs on what the Church entails upon US as they are different.

I’ve heard no complaints of us “imposing” what OUR beliefs of what is in the NT canon on the Protestants.

The Church are those whom Christ has redeemed, it is composed of those who walk in newness of life. It is visible when two or three are gathered together in His name through faith in His work…it is invisible in that members are found in each faith community, there is only One Church, One Body, One Baptism…it’s membership is not determined by adherance to doctrine and dogmas determined by an institutional heirarchy, it’s membership is drawn together into newness of Life by the Holy Spirit, he makes us One out many.

That’s why St. Paul went into detail about the institutional hierarchy in I Timothy, for instance, because it’s invisible

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You know as a cradle Catholic, maybe I will ask those door knockers to show me that in their translations of the bible. Very clever argument. Ask them a twister. Thanks for the idea.

Where “invisible” in the Bible?

 

[Publisher]

Perhaps it would help if I explain my motivation a little:

When Protestants ask us (Catholics) questions like “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to worship Mary?” that, in my opinion, causes Protestants to lose credibility in our eyes.

So what I’m wondering is, does this go the other way too, like when Catholics say to Protestants “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?”

All such questions do so I believe…whether they be from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or what have you. The questions, IMO are designed to cause a division which does not have to exist. No one “owns God”…but from many of the questions posed…one wouldn’t know it.

I am all for dialog and seeking to understand one another…but all this “one-up-manship” of “My God is better than your God…My beliefs are the right ones and you’re a heretic and/or schismatic” really does nothing to build bridges…but to build walls…and all of us are the poorer for it.

Who knows, if a differnt tactic were used some may even end up saying “Thou almost persuadest me to be ___________”

 

[Mannyfit75]

All such questions do so I believe…whether they be from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or what have you. The questions, IMO are designed to cause a division which does not have to exist. No one “owns God”…but from many of the questions posed…one wouldn’t know it.

I am all for dialog and seeking to understand one another…but all this “one-up-manship” of “My God is better than your God…My beliefs are the right ones and you’re a heretic and/or schismatic” really does nothing to build bridges…but to build walls…and all of us are the poorer for it.

Who knows, if a differnt tactic were used some may even end up saying “Thou almost persuadest me to be ___________”

True no one owns God. He acquire himself a people. But the Bible clearly states no one has the right to separate himself from the Church. The Bible often describe the Church as the Body of Christ. Jesus being the head.

 

[Publisher]

True no one owns God. He acquire himself a people. But the Bible clearly states no one has the right to separate himself from the Church. The Bible often describe the Church as the Body of Christ. Jesus being the head.

That is the rub…no one is claiming we have the right to separate oneself from the Church…I simply do not believe the religious tradition you belong to is THE CHURCH that I am separate from…I am joined to The Church through Christ by the Holy Spirit in regeneration. I am a member of the Body of Christ, Jesus being the head…I am not a member of the Catholic church, but I am joined to those members that worship in your tradition that are redeemed by Christ, He makes us one in Him.

Again, I have not separated myself from the Church…I’ve just never been a member of the Catholic church…that is the difference…we believe differently…

 

[Peter_J]

All such questions do so I believe…whether they be from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or what have you.

I’m starting to think so.

The questions, IMO are designed to cause a division which does not have to exist.

I suppose so, but that isn’t my main objection.

Here’s how I would describe it: Catholics don’t teach that it’s okay to worship Mary, so asking a Catholic “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to worship Mary?” is like asking “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to beat your wife?” (Same, I suppose, with asking a Protestant “Where in the bible does it teach that it is alright to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?”)

 

[ron77nyc]

When leaders become corrupt it’s common sense to not follow them. Rev. Martin Luther tried to reform this corruption with his 95 theses. He was ignored and so the schism occurred. Look at his 95 theses. It will tell you what was going on back then. We should not be carrying that feud with us into the future. Vatican II says it’s OK to like Protestants.

 

[Publisher]

I’m starting to think so.

I suppose so, but that isn’t my main objection.

Here’s how I would describe it: Catholics don’t teach that it’s okay to worship Mary, so asking a Catholic “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to worship Mary?” is like asking “Where in the bible does it say that it’s okay to beat your wife?” (Same, I suppose, with asking a Protestant “Where in the bible does it teach that it is alright to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?”)

I think we agree. The questions posed are not really seeking honest answers…well…at least in the same vein as “When did you quit beating your wife?” How does one answer such a question…either I come off “defensive” by denying I ever beat my wife…or I tell you…“I stopped last week.”…neither question or answer was posed to facilitate true dialog and understanding…but to put one on the defensive or condemn ourselves in the posers eyes by our answer.

 

[Publisher]

I’ve heard no complaints of us “imposing” what OUR beliefs of what is in the NT canon on the Protestants.

That’s why St. Paul went into detail about the institutional hierarchy in I Timothy, for instance, because it’s invisible

And questions posed like this aren’t meant to engender peace and goodwill between believers in Christ…is it?

As a Quaker, my answer would be…these questions are not asked or spoken from that Center of Truth and Light but out of division and mistrust.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

When we (Catholics) ask questions like “Where in the bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the authority of the church which Christ established?” does it cause us to lose credibility? I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are.

Didn’t Jesus rebuke the self righteous religious leaders of His day?

So, rebelling against specific people within the church when they pose a threat is okay. Rebelling against the church is not.

One thing that makes Catholics lose credibility in my mind is when they argue about silly things.

“Should I receive communion on my tongue, or have the wafer placed into my hand?”

“Is it proper to stand, or kneel while receiving communion?”

“Is it okay to make the sign of the cross while receiving communion?”

This is what happens when your worship becomes too religious. You tend to focus too much on outward appearances and small details to the point where they are all you think about.