Where is Ali's Quran

[jakasaki]

It’s not true, what you’re saying.

Many Companions had their own masahif. And Uthman didn’t decide the orders of the chapters.

If Uthman didn’t decide the orders of the chapters, who did then?

 

[inJESUS]

It’s not true, what you’re saying.

Many Companions had their own masahif. And Uthman didn’t decide the orders of the chapters.

Just as i give references, please give us references Amy.

 

[Sam_777]

If Uthman didn’t decide the orders of the chapters, who did then?

Yes, Uthman did, here is authentic hadith for it:

Musnad Ahmed #376:

مسند أحمد:
قال لنا ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏قلت ‏ ‏لعثمان بن عفان ما حملكم على أن عمدتم إلى ‏ ‏الأنفال ‏ ‏وهي من المثاني وإلى ‏ ‏براءة ‏ ‏وهي من ‏ ‏المئين فقرنتم بينهما ولم تكتبوا ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ابن جعفر ‏ ‏بينهما سطرا ‏ ‏بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ‏ ‏ووضعتموها في السبع الطوال ما حملكم على ذلك قال ‏ ‏عثمان ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏إن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏كان مما يأتي عليه الزمان ينزل عليه من السور ذوات العدد وكان إذا أنزل عليه الشيء يدعو بعض من يكتب عنده يقول ‏ ‏ضعوا هذا في السورة التي يذكر فيها كذا وكذا وينزل عليه الآيات فيقول ضعوا هذه الآيات في السورة التي يذكر فيها كذا وكذا وينزل عليه الآية فيقول ضعوا هذه الآية في السورة التي يذكر فيها كذا وكذا وكانت ‏ ‏الأنفال ‏ ‏من أوائل ما أنزل ‏ ‏بالمدينة ‏ ‏وبراءة ‏ ‏من آخر القرآن فكانت قصتها شبيها بقصتها فقبض رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ولم يبين لنا أنها منها وظننت أنها منها فمن ثم قرنت بينهما ولم أكتب بينهما سطرا ‏ ‏بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ابن جعفر ‏ ‏ووضعتها ‏ ‏ف ‏ ‏السبع الطوال ‏
​

(A)

And it seems the order of the Suras is not important according to this authentic hadith:

**Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515: **
“While I was with Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, “What type of shroud is the best?” 'Aisha said, “May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?” He said, “O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur’an,” She said, “Why?” He said, “In order to compile and arrange the Qur’an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order.” 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first?..”
(E) (A)

 

[zerinus]

Just as i give references, please give us references Amy.

A question for you, inJESUS. I was under the impression that the Koran was compiled by a committee consisting of the first four Khalifs; but your posts suggest something different. How much is known of the history of how the Koran was put together, and those involved in doing it (and any who opposed)?

zerinus

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, Uthman did, here is authentic hadith for it:

ثم قرنت بينهما ولم أكتب بينهما سطرا ‏ ‏بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ابن جعفر ‏ ‏ووضعتها ‏ ‏ف ‏ ‏السبع الطوال ‏

 

[inJESUS]

A question for you, inJESUS. I was under the impression that the Koran was compiled by a committee consisting of the first four Khalifs; but your posts suggest something different. How much is known of the history of how the Koran was put together, and those involved in doing it (and any who opposed)?

zerinus

the Quran’s compilation was not done one time. There was one compilation during Abu Bakr’s time, and another compilation during Uthmans (which makes us wonder, what needed to be “changed” after so many years). Both compilations, according to Sunni sources, were not the same, neither in chapters’ order, nor verse numbers, nor chapters’ content. Sunni sources talk about chapters recited which were much longer than the ones found in the current Quran, and the same sources mention different numbers of verses in the whole Quran, and other sources talk about recited verses that did not become part of the Quran (and which Muslims call as abrogation, in the sense that their ruling is valid but they do not exist anymore in the Quran!), and other sources mention Ali’s Quran which had the correct “revealed” order of chapters. Those who opposed Ali’s Quran were the companions (not sure who), and those who opposed Uthman’s Quran were one of Muhammad’s best scribes, Ibn Masud, who had his bones broken by uthman for opposing him, and you will read about others who opposed this or that version. Then you will read about people differing about the Quran to the point of fighting with each others, and you will read about the 7 variants of the Quran (all revealed- go figure), then you’ll read about those best reciters who were killed in wars and their Quran buried with them, then you will read about verses found with only one person ( the rest of Muslims did not hear about them). It was actually a chaos and there are many more things but these are more than enough to cast a doubt about a book, a supposedly divinely revealed book where chapter and verse order was corrupted, and which leads to change in meaning .

 

[zerinus]

the Quran’s compilation was not done one time. There was one compilation during Abu Bakr’s time, and another compilation during Uthmans (which makes us wonder, what needed to be “changed” after so many years). Both compilations, according to Sunni sources, were not the same, neither in chapters’ order, nor verse numbers, nor chapters’ content. Sunni sources talk about chapters recited which were much longer than the ones found in the current Quran, and the same sources mention different numbers of verses in the whole Quran, and other sources talk about recited verses that did not become part of the Quran (and which Muslims call as abrogation, in the sense that their ruling is valid but they do not exist anymore in the Quran!), and other sources mention Ali’s Quran which had the correct “revealed” order of chapters. Those who opposed Ali’s Quran were the companions (not sure who), and those who opposed Uthman’s Quran were one of Muhammad’s best scribes, Ibn Masud, who had his bones broken by uthman for opposing him, and you will read about others who opposed this or that version. Then you will read about people differing about the Quran to the point of fighting with each others, and you will read about the 7 variants of the Quran (all revealed- go figure), then you’ll read about those best reciters who were killed in wars and their Quran buried with them, then you will read about verses found with only one person ( the rest of Muslims did not hear about them). It was actually a chaos and there are many more things but these are more than enough to cast a doubt about a book, a supposedly divinely revealed book where chapter and verse order was corrupted, and which leads to change in meaning .

Thank you; informative as ever. I was referring to the existing Koran. I was somehow under the impression that it was compiled by a committee of the consisting of the first four Khalifs; I am not sure what was the source of that information.

zerinus

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you; informative as ever. I was referring to the existing Koran. I was somehow under the impression that it was compiled by a committee of the consisting of the first four Khalifs; I am not sure what was the source of that information.

zerinus

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 521

Narrated Masruq:

… I heard the Prophet saying, “Take (learn) the Qur’an from four (men): `Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu’adh and Ubai bin Ka’b.”

Ibn Masu’d was beaten up by Uthman for differing with him , and Ubai’s Quran differed from Uthman’s and from Ibn Masu’d !

The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

“The Syrians,” we are told, "contended with the Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Kab, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas’ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23).

And we must not forget that the companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur’an with verses that the other companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Umar said, Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever’.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.’ (Qur’an 2:106)

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: Those of you who die and leave wives behind… without turning them out,’ has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur’an)?" `Uthman said, “Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur’an) from its original position.”

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur’an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur’an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur’an today.

Regarding Uthman’s editing, we can give an example:

Now al-Anfal was one of the first to come down in Medina and Baraa was among the last of the Qur'an to come down, and the subject-matter of the one **resembled **that of the other, so because God's messenger was taken without having explained to us whether it belonged to it, **for that reason I joined them without writing the line containing In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,’ and put it among the long suras**."

Here we see that Uthman was questioned by other Muslims as to why he did not include the phrase, “In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful”, at the beginning of sura 9. His answer was that Muhammad had died without explaining where sura 9 belonged and so he (Uthman) joined it to sura 8 because they “resembled” each other. What is obvious is that some Muslims felt the phrase should have been there while Uthman did not. Uthman’s decision prevailed and so the phrase is not included in the modern Qur’an.

As i told you , it was a chaos. Muhammad’s own scribes and companions disagreed among themselves and Ibn Masud rejected uthman’s Quran. These are just the tip of the iceberg so we ask again, where are these peoples’ Quran? burned by Uthman. And where is Ali’s Quran that was tempered with and which resulted in different sequence of verses and chapters which leads to change in meaning? the Shia say this uncorrupt Quran will be revealed by the Mahdi. Lest Muslims accuse us of “ignorance” or “hatred”, it is the Shia who question Uthman’s tempering with the Quran and the refusal of the companions to Ali’s Quran. As the saying goes, “and a witness from among themselves have witnessed”.

Yet, the general Muslim population are fooled by people who brainwash their brains with the following:

The text of the Qur’an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you! Great information as usual.

As i told you , it was a chaos. Muhammad’s own scribes and companions disagreed among themselves and Ibn Masud rejected uthman’s Quran. These are just the tip of the iceberg so we ask again, where are these peoples’ Quran? burned by Uthman.

Was the decision to burn the other versions Uthman’s or did he have collaborators? Is the present day Koran exclusively compiled by Uthman, or were there others involved? What was Ali’s role in that? Did he agree with Uthman or disagree?

Yet, the general Muslim population are fooled by people who brainwash their brains with the following:

The text of the Qur’an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation.

That is very ironic, I agree.

zerinus

 

[famdigy]

Hello Famdigy !

 

[inJESUS]

hello again ! what did you mean by “It contains around 17000 verses” when you refered to Ali’s copy?

In the same way as the prophet, Imam Ali (as) knew that if he insisted on distributing his manuscript it would be a cause for disunity among the muslims and it may be the catalyst to multiple different versions of the Qur’an in the hands of the muslims. The imam (as) wanted only 1 manuscript in the hands of all muslims.

what about the 7 ahruf ? and what about the chapters and verses? are they supposed to be the same as Ali’s?

The Mahdi will reveal the hidden knowledge of the Quran, it’s correct interpretation, and it’s true meaning. An example would be the first verse of chapter 2 of the Quran “Alif Laam Meem”, these type of verses were coded messages to the prophet, and only Imam Ali (as) preserved their meaning in his manuscript. This knowledge is now with the Mahdi (as) and he will appear when God permits.

why was it only with Ali? what about Aisha or any other person alongside Ali?