Where is Biblical Support for the Reformation....

[JRKH]

I had raised this question on a couple of other threads and no one answered it so I decided to post it in it’s own thread.

The Protestant Reformation was spawned on the idea that The Church that existed in 1500, which had started out as THE Christian Church was so completely corrupt that it had lost any legitimate claim to Being the One Holy and True Church.
It is built upon the idea that everything we need to know is contained in the Bible. (Sola Scriptura) From this is built all of the various theologies and denominations we know today.
Luther and others felt that they were justified in their “Reformation” due to the problems in the Church at the time and based their Reformed Church on The Bible Alone. Which leads me to this question for the panel.

**Where in the Bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the Authority of the Church Which Christ established? **
I see many instances where the Authority of the Church is affirmed, (Bind and Loose, Keys to Kingdom, hell will not prevail, pillar and foundation etc.) but none that say it is OK to dissent or deny or foment rebellion in the Church.
Christ Even told the Jews and His disciples to obey the Scribes and Pharasees while in the same breath calling those Scribes and Pharasees sinners. (Matthew 23:2-3)
Why would Jesus tell His Disciples to Obey their legitimate but sinful Church Leaders and then sanction the disobedience of Luther and others to their legitimate Church leaders?
Where is the Scriptural Foundation for this?
Peace
JAmes

 

[JonNC]

The Protestant Reformation was spawned on the idea that The Church that existed in 1500, which had started out as THE Christian Church was so completely corrupt that it had lost any legitimate claim to Being the One Holy and True Church.
It is built upon the idea that everything we need to know is contained in the Bible. (Sola Scriptura) From this is built all of the various theologies and denominations we know today.
Luther and others felt that they were justified in their “Reformation” due to the problems in the Church at the time and based their Reformed Church on The Bible Alone. Which leads me to this question for the panel.

Peace
JAmes

James,
Just one point: At least for Lutherans, this is a mischaracterization of sola scriptura. Luther, Melanchton, Chemnitz, et al., liberally quoted from the ECF’s, they maintained the creeds, and accepted the early ecumenical councils (at least six, anyway). The Augsburg Confession concludes:

Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.

Jon

 

[Steadfast]

All throughout the Old Testament prophets were called to reform backslidden Israel and to call her back to the Lord.

The model is there.

 

[Mannyfit75]

All throughout the Old Testament prophets were called to reform backslidden Israel and to call her back to the Lord.

The model is there.

Need examples

 

[SyCarl]

Given the Reformers’ prevailing view that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, I guess this would have applied.

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
(Revelation 18:1-5 NASB)

Even recognizing that the Catholic Church is not the whore, this would seem to justify separation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Given the Reformers’ prevailing view that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, I guess this would have applied.

Even recognizing that the Catholic Church is not the whore, this would seem to justify separation.

Well that is not the Church. That is verse is the Anti-Christ, someone who reject Christ totally. That doesn’t justify it. I do know that those who did rebel against Moses is the only account in Scripture which is Korah and sons of Eliab. God sided with Moses and God open the earth and swallowed them.

That passage in Revelation is referring to Apostate Israel for rejecting the Messiah.

 

[JRKH]

All throughout the Old Testament prophets were called to reform backslidden Israel and to call her back to the Lord.

The model is there.

Throughout the life of the Church many saints and holy men and women have been called to reform backslidden Christianity as well. These were accomplished from within the Church just as in the OT the reform was of Judaism. The Prophets did not advocate or attempt to set up rival Jewish “Churches”. Nor did they try to deny, or even demonize, the authority of the temple in Jerusalem.

I don’t think this model works too well.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

James,
Just one point: At least for Lutherans, this is a mischaracterization of sola scriptura. Luther, Melanchton, Chemnitz, et al., liberally quoted from the ECF’s, they maintained the creeds, and accepted the early ecumenical councils (at least six, anyway). The Augsburg Confession concludes:

Jon

OK Jon, I accept this of the Lutherens. However the basic question still stands. Even if we include the ECF’s, where is the justification for Splitting and denying the authority of The Catholic Church?

Peace
James

 

[Our_Refuge]

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” I heard another voice from heaven, saying,

"Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

The Apostled John is speak of city of Rome not the Church.
He is speaking about the immorality, the utter decadence that had befallen the pagan Roman Empire during the time of the Apostles. Another example of private interpretation gone wild.

 

[JRKH]

Given the Reformers’ prevailing view that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, I guess this would have applied.

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
(Revelation 18:1-5 NASB)

So in order for this to be a justification, an Angel must be heard, basically pronouncing jugjement on Babylon. This is then followed by anothor voice from Heaven calling God’s people out of Babylon.
So who heard these voices? Did any of the Protestant Reformers claim to hear these voices? I’m quite certain Martin Luther wouldn’t have used this verse as justification since he wanted to throw revelation out of the NT.

Even recognizing that the Catholic Church is not the whore, this would seem to justify separation.

If you remove the Catholic Church as the Whore, you still must accept it as Babylon. If you remove this connection then the verse loses any justification for seperation.

So we go back to Jesus own command to the Disciples to obey, even sinful leaders.

Peace
James

 

[ralphinal]

All throughout the Old Testament prophets were called to reform backslidden Israel and to call her back to the Lord.

The model is there.

And they left Traditional Judaism and created their own sects, right?

 

[Our_Refuge]

If you remove the Catholic Church as the Whore,

you still must accept it as Babylon

Babylon is Rome. Period. The Apostles use the word Babylon in reference to Rome It was the worldly city of the time. The city of idol worship, homosexuality, abortion, ever decadence know to man.
Rome was the city of the pagan emperors that had the blood of the saints on her hands. Paul was beheaded there. Peter was crucified there. You could not buy or sell in Rome unless you had the coin with the emperors image.
Nero was 666. Please do some scholarly research.

 

[jblake]

JRKH;:

The Prophets did not advocate or attempt to set up rival Jewish “Churches”. Nor did they try to deny, or even demonize, the authority of the temple in Jerusalem.

The reformers tried to work within the church, to correct the errors that they saw. The church hierarchy excommunicated the reformers, leaving those reformers with no option but to create a church that did not have the errors that they saw.

By the time the Catholic Church realized the error of its ways, it was too late.

The reformers were using the guideline in Acts 17:11.

xan

jonathon

 

[Mannyfit75]

The reformers tried to work within the church, to correct the errors that they saw. The church hierarchy excommunicated the reformers, leaving those reformers with no option but to create a church that did not have the errors that they saw.

By the time the Catholic Church realized the error of its ways, it was too late.

The reformers were using the guideline in Acts 17:11.

xan

jonathon

Acts 17:11 states:

** Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. **

That does not justify Reformation. Reformation lead to division.

The Reformation was founded by men. They were not of God. The Fathers of the Reformers came up with new doctrine of Faith Alone and Scripture Alone. Two doctrines that is neither taught in the Bible or in the Traditions of the Church.

Any Early Church Fathers would find these two new doctrines that Martin Luther and other Reformers made as foreign.

 

[elvisman]

The reformers tried to work within the church, to correct the errors that they saw. The church hierarchy excommunicated the reformers, leaving those reformers with no option but to create a church that did not have the errors that they saw.

By the time the Catholic Church realized the error of its ways, it was too late.

The reformers were using the guideline in Acts 17:11.

xan

jonathon

The whole point is that you can’t “create” a new church because you don’t like the one Jesus set up and still maintain that it is the fullness of truth. Jesus established only one.

Claiming that the Reformers were using the example of the Beroeans doesn’t hold water.
The Reformers rebelled and started their own “denominations”. Hardly the same as the “fair-minded” Beroeans scripture speaks of.

 

[JRKH]

Babylon is Rome. Period. The Apostles use the word Babylon in reference to Rome It was the worldly city of the time. The city of idol worship, homosexuality, abortion, ever decadence know to man.
Rome was the city of the pagan emperors that had the blood of the saints on her hands. Paul was beheaded there. Peter was crucified there. You could not buy or sell in Rome unless you had the coin with the emperors image.
Nero was 666. Please do some scholarly research.

I’m sorry if I was unclear. I am not denying that Rome was refered to as Babylon, only that there is real problems with trying to use this passage as a justification for seperating from the Church in Rome.

The biggest Problem I would have with the use of anything from Revelation is Luther’s known dislike for the book. He wanted to remove it from the Bible. It is highly unlikely that He would have based the reformation on anything from this book.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The reformers tried to work within the church, to correct the errors that they saw. The church hierarchy excommunicated the reformers, leaving those reformers with no option but to create a church that did not have the errors that they saw.

What do you mean they had no other option?
Are you saying that these people could not have found another way to work within the Church?
Jesus taught obedience to Authority. Even if that authority is sinful. Look at Matthew 23:2-3.

By the time the Catholic Church realized the error of its ways, it was too late.

So here we see that the Church did indeed correct itself.

The reformers were using the guideline in Acts 17:11.

xan

jonathon

Interesting. Seems to stretch it though. Do you have a source that would indicate that the reformers referenced this verse as justification?

Peace
James

 

[jblake]

JRKH;:

Are you saying that these people could not have found another way to work within the Church?

Once they were excommunicated, there was no way for them to work within the church.

Jesus taught obedience to Authority. Even if that authority is sinful. Look at Matthew 23:2-3.

Reread it. The Pharisees have authority. They are to be obeyed, but only when their promulgations are not in conflict with the Torah.

So here we see that the Church did indeed correct itself.

There is difference between realizing that an error has been made, and correcting that error.

Seems to stretch it though. Do you have a source that would indicate that the reformers referenced this verse as justification?

Luther consistently requested scriptural support for the abusive practices that he saw on a daily basis, practiced by other representatives of the Catholic Church.

Just as consistently, the church hierarchy refused to provide any scriptural justification for those practices.

xan

jonathon

 

[ralphinal]

Once they were excommunicated, they could have recanted their heretical positions and returned ot the Church, then worked on fixing the real problems. Instead, they held to the positions that they created, allowing pride to stand in the way of their faith.

 

[Cinette]

Well that is not the Church. That is verse is the Anti-Christ, someone who reject Christ totally. That doesn’t justify it. I do know that those who did rebel against Moses is the only account in Scripture which is Korah and sons of Eliab. God sided with Moses and God open the earth and swallowed them.

That passage in Revelation is referring to Apostate Israel for rejecting the Messiah.

What about Matt 16:18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Jesus’ Word that “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” are words to be taken very seriously.

As you point out the example of Korah - God sided with Moses.

Its about time that Lutherans come home! One thing I have observed is how Lutherans have changed substantially from Luther’s church. I have met people from two different Lutheran churches and they were like chalk and cheese - each believing different things.

It would indeed be interesting if someone could point out any biblical proof to support the Reformation. Reformation inside the Church is something ongoing - we need to continually renew ourselves. We humans have to constantly be revitalized through prayer. We are so imperfect.