Where is Catholicism in the Bible?

[Mommyof02green]

Much of the information I have read here is great, some I have never heard before, and much of it is useful in my own faith and understanding of my church.

So while the OP may not care for the information, many on this thread do.

Keep it up guys. I’m learning a lot.

I think you have a very good point here. Whether Allan is actually interested in learning something is certainly up for debate. However, the thoughtful, patient responses that he gets has certainly increased my knowledge of our faith.

I wish everyone can and will be patient. (myself included)

However, I will say that I at least agree with you that this has been helpful in learning about our faith.

Earlier this statement was made:

(Although your challenge did us a great service; this thread is a mini-tract on why the Catholic Church is biblically correct).

It is also my opinion that this thread is in some ways a mini-track on why the Catholic Church is biblically correct.:bible1:

God Bless
M2G

 

[mlldrl]

Keep it up guys. I’m learning a lot.

Good deal. Glad it is helping others.

Michael

 

[awfulthings9]

However, I think it is time that Allan substantiate his basis for the truth. He makes a lot of claims about how we should go by the Bible alone and how we must who such and such teaching in Scripture. Fine. If this is what he believes, I think the appropriate thing would be for someone to start a new thread for that purpose. I hesistate to do this because I know so many threads have been done to death and Allan could just “look it up”, as it is often suggested new members do when they bring up rehashed topics. I also question Allan’s sincerity in being open-minded to what God has revealed because he has so often blatantly ignored very excellent post in order to make a new post about some silly anti-Catholic thing he just read on the Internet somewhere.

However, in the interest of being fair, let’s give him the benefit of a doubt. I’ll start this new thread, which will give Allan a chance to answer some basic questions to show us that his version of Christianity holds the truth. If he can do so, I’ll renounce the Catholic Church immediately.

 

[VociMike]

How does denying her the title Mother of God deny Jesus his divintiy?

Because it says that the person whom Mary gave birth to is not God. It separates Jesus from God and says they are not the same.

As I said, the entire Protestant objection comes from the simple fact that they don’t recognize that “mother of God” only makes sense where God can have a mother; where the nature of God allows for a mother. The Father cannot have a mother, nor can the Holy Spirit. But Jesus, God Incarnate, having united human nature with the divine nature, can have a mother. Therefore, since Jesus is fully God as well as fully man, because of the Incarnation God can now have a mother, and Mary is that mother.

 

[VociMike]

I’ve already said it. I’ll say it again. She was the mother of the Son of God

It seems like we can clear this up quite easily. Is Jesus God or is Jesus not God? Others have asked you this as well, but I haven’t seen your answer.

 

[VociMike]

The bible was written by people like moses the prophets, matthew, mar,k, luke, etc who were inspired by the holy spirit.

Who says so?

 

[Mommyof02green]

I think the appropriate thing would be for someone to start a new thread for that purpose. I hesistate to do this because I know so many threads have been done to death and Allan could just “look it up”, as it is often suggested new members do when they bring up rehashed topics.

Well normally Allan and others could just “look it up” but for the last few days the search has been down.

However, its up and running now…
but there could be times it’s down again.

see: forums.catholic-questions.org/announcement.php?f=20&a=35

 

[mercygate]

I think the Idea he is trying to convey is that we have the written teaching of the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles in our Bible. What more do we need than the direct teachings of God through the scripture? This is all the early church had. Do we need something different for salvation than the first generation of Christians?

C’mon kaycee! You know that for the first couple of decades after Pentecost the Gospels didn’t exist, and though some of the epistles were very early, they weren’t universally recognized or collected. The early Church was certainly not a “Bible only” operation. Not even by the most generous recognition of the circulating texts, which were not universally and absolutely ratified as such in the late 4th Century.

 

[Norseman82]

In John chapter 1 it says that God is the word and the wrod was made flesh which is Jesus.
My belief is Jesus came to save the world, and if you read the Gospels, you can be saved just by reading what Jesus said or did. Jesus set the perfect example. But he also quoted from the old testament. so its important to read the old testament to. I also believe in the books written by the apostles, because they were with Jesus. They know Jesus better than anybody. Jesus and the apostles, as far as scripture goes is all I need.

That’s why I don’t even read books written by any other Christians.

Again, that is not what I asked.

I did not ask your personal opinion. I’m looking for the specific chapter(s) and verse(s) that state that anything that is not in the Bible is false teaching and heresy, which is what you stated in your original post. If you do not supply them, then by your own definition you are spouting false teaching and heresy.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Actually the Church and the State were virtually one for centuries. The “power” has separated as opposed to weakened.

Can’t really say if that is a good thing or not

Actually I know that but I worded it differently.

 

[Allan1972]

Where did you find this summary? What is your source?

I’ve noticed that on many, (not all) but many of your postings you quote things but fail to site the source. It would be helpful for all of us if you site the source.

I remember learning why we need to site the source in High School English Class. I remember how that’s important. I remember how that helps others find the material for themselves to read and learn.

Allan you had to say this about the Bible:
Well the same hold true to other sources. I have to read the entire thing to really understand it, not just the bits and pieces that Allan is telling me.

Allan, please site your sources.
Thanks and God Bless.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

here is the link that was given to me by another person from this forum. they were concerned about me using a biased source. some of you are too angry to trying to be discussing christianity. Christians are peaceful.

 

[Allan1972]

So when protestants outright slaughtered catholics (you know it is still illegal, but not enforced, to be catholic in protestant england?) it was ok right? Oh wait, thats right they handed us over to the state. Our favorite rest stop was the tower of london (pretty decorations you guys had and invented)

I’m from colorado, in the 1800’s catholics and indians were massacered statewide by guess whom? It begins with a P.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

I’m not a protestant, so i don’t know why you are telling me, I’m quoting these things because some people keep saying that the Catholic Church has always been the same. Please pay attention to who I am quoting from and you’ll understand what I’m trying to point out.

 

[Mannyfit75]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

here is the link that was given to me by another person from this forum. they were concerned about me using a biased source. some of you are too angry to trying to be discussing christianity. Christians are peaceful.

I gave him that link but he failed to look at the more detail account like the Inquisition, which I clearly stated that the state government killed criminals and heretics. Back then Church Law and State Law were equal, punishable by death in certain cases.

I’m pretty sure, Allan took note on what he missed.

 

[Karin]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

here is the link that was given to me by another person from this forum. they were concerned about me using a biased source. some of you are too angry to trying to be discussing christianity. Christians are peaceful.

well that is not the best source to go to …IMHO
you can do better than wikipedia I am sure

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m not a protestant, so i don’t know why you are telling me, I’m quoting these things because some people keep saying that the Catholic Church has always been the same. Please pay attention to who I am quoting from and you’ll understand what I’m trying to point out.

Whether you like it or not, you are a Protestant Christian.

Sola Scripura is one of the Pillars of Protestantism, which in these thread you clearly state.

The history of Protestantism began on October 31, 1517, when Martin Luther tacked up his 95 theses on the door of the Roman Catholic Castle Church in Wittenberg. It started as a Christian movement within the Roman Catholic Church. What followed was a succession of scandals, and Luther’s theses quickly circulated. Martin Luther was a German Roman Catholic, and a monk of the order of St Augustine of Hippo.

The Five Pillars of Protestantism.

* Solus Christus: Christ alone.

The Protestants characterize the dogma concerning the Pope as Christ's representative head of the Church on earth, the concept of meritorious works, and the Catholic idea of a treasury of the merits of saints, as a denial that Christ is the only mediator between God and man.

* Sola scriptura: Scripture alone.

Protestants believe that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church obscure the teachings of the Bible by convoluting it with church history and doctrine.

* Sola fide: Faith alone.

Protestants believe that faith in Christ alone is enough for eternal salvation, unlike Roman Catholics who believe it requires "faith and good works." Instead, Protestants believe that practicing good works attests to one's faith in Christ and his teachings.

* Sola gratia: Grace alone.

The Roman Catholic view of the means of salvation was believed by the Protestants to be a mixture of reliance upon the grace of God, and confidence in the merits of one's own works, performed in love. The Reformers posited that salvation is entirely comprehended in God's gifts, (i.e. God's act of free grace) dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone. Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God's grace, and that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works - for no one deserves salvation.

 

[Allan1972]

The Church and State at the time were very powerful at the time, and back then the Catholic Church had some secular power. That power has weaken since then.

You still have not answer my question about the Crusades. You said Pope Urban called to arms to for a Crusade to fight the Muslims since the Eastern Emperor of Constantinople requested for his help. I asked you, who do you side, the Eastern Christians, or the Muslim invaders?

I also like to note that the heretics of the Church were not perfect compared to Jesus. I, myself do not agree with the Inquisition but I felt it was necessary at the time because it call for it. I do think that some of the innocent may have been falsely accused, but that is human nature.

The Protestants themselves killed Catholics and the Catholics likewise killed Protestants during the 30 Years War.

During the Colonial Times, the Protestant Christians also had their own form of inquisition. The Salem Witch killed a a lot of witches… some were even falsely accused.

In any rate, the evil that men cannot be blame on a certain groups or religions. The cause of these problems is the stains of original sin that Adam and Eve that pass down through generations.

During those times however, the Catholic Church was preserved from announcing any heretical doctrine that negates God himself. Thank God for the Holy Spirit for preserving the Catholic Church.

It’s over 2,000 yrs now, and the Catholic Church is still here like it was founded on Pentecost Sunday, the Birth of Jesus Christ’s Church.

I don’t side with either the eastern christians or the muslims. I don’t doubt that the Catholic Church is still here. The question is whether the church has been exactly the same since it began. For example,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

If you go to this link you will see an unbiased account of catholic history. It shows many things but one of them is the fact that the catholic church has gone through many changes.

such as this

Great Schism

During the 11th century, through a gradual process over a number of centuries, the Church underwent the Great Schism in which the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church divided over a number of administrative, liturgical, and doctrinal issues, most notably the Filioque clause and papal primacy of jurisdiction. The schism is conventionally dated to 1054, when the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope issued mutual excommunications that have since been revoked. Both the Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Basel (1439) attempted to reunite the Churches, but in both cases the Orthodox rejected the councils. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy remain in schism to the present day, although excommunications were lifted mutually between Rome and Constantinople in 1965, and efforts to end the schism continue. Some Eastern Churches have since reunited with the Catholic Church, acknowledging papal primacy, and others claim never to have been out of communion with the Pope. (See Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

 

[Allan1972]

Just out of curiosity Allan, sinse you are against church and state being in bed together, what do you think of all those Evangelical advisors to Bush (33 if I remember correctly) influencing U.S. policy, in particular foreign policy?

Don’t you find that slightly hypocritical? Or didn’t your new church tell you about them?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

There’s nothing wrong with Christians talking to politicians about change lik paul went to talk to ceasar. ther problem is when they are trying to have someone killed for there beliefs, even if someone is a heretic, christians don’t take it upon themselves to have someone imprisoned or killed.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t side with either the eastern christians or the muslims. I don’t doubt that the Catholic Church is still here. The question is whether the church has been exactly the same since it began. For example,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

If you go to this link you will see an unbiased account of catholic history. It shows many things but one of them is the fact that the catholic church has gone through many changes.

such as this

Great Schism

During the 11th century, through a gradual process over a number of centuries, the Church underwent the Great Schism in which the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church divided over a number of administrative, liturgical, and doctrinal issues, most notably the Filioque clause and papal primacy of jurisdiction. The schism is conventionally dated to 1054, when the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope issued mutual excommunications that have since been revoked. Both the Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Basel (1439) attempted to reunite the Churches, but in both cases the Orthodox rejected the councils. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy remain in schism to the present day, although excommunications were lifted mutually between Rome and Constantinople in 1965, and efforts to end the schism continue. Some Eastern Churches have since reunited with the Catholic Church, acknowledging papal primacy, and others claim never to have been out of communion with the Pope. (See Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

Did you just discovered the Schism in the wikipedia? Well, I’m familiar with the Great Schism.

I also like to point that the Catholic Church has taken step to reconcil itself with the Orthodox.
Pope John Paul II consider the Eastern Orthodox, as the other other lung of Christianity…

Both Churches have apostolic successions which is still very active today.

The Catholic-Orthodox Joint Declaration of 1965 was read out on 7 December 1965, simultaneously at a public meeting of the Second Vatican Council in Rome and at a special ceremony in Constantinople. It withdrew the exchange of excommunications between prominent ecclesiastics in the Roman see and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 1054. It did not end the East-West Schism but showed a desire for greater reconciliation between the two churches, represented by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I.

I doubt the unification between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox will happen in my life time, but it will in the future.

 

[Mommyof02green]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

here is the link that was given to me by another person from this forum. they were concerned about me using a biased source. some of you are too angry to trying to be discussing christianity. Christians are peaceful.

Allan this is not what I was talking about.
I went to the link above but it did not have the info I was looking for.

I wanted to know where you got this quote from:

Popes Innocent III (1216) and Boniface VIII (1303) put the final touches to Papal triumph in spiritual and temporal power. Seventy-five popes, one after another, from Pope Innocent Pope Pius VII, approved of torture, murder, and burning at the stake, and the confiscation of property of believers in the horrific centuries of the Inquisition. Many of those slain were true Bible believers.
“The most ghastly abomination of all was the system of torture. The accounts of its cold-blooded operations make one shudder at the capacity of human beings for cruelty. And it was decreed and regulated by the Popes who claim to represent Christ on earth. In 1252 Pope Innocent IV solemnly authorized it. Confirmatory or regulatory decrees about it were issued by Alexander IV, Clement IV, Urban IV and Clement V.”

The Papacy had become “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.”No other kingdom or power has ever drunken so deeply of this blood as had Papal Rome. Thus as streams are traced to the fountain, so is the Papacy traced to the prophecies of Scripture, which correctly interprets the Papacy. This is “the same horn [that] made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

You use this quote in post 221. This link will take you straight to post 221 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1825062&postcount=221

What is the source on this quote?
What is the source for the quote used in post 221?
Thanks!

 

[Allan1972]

My friend you are the one who made the assertion that the Bible is sufficient for salvation, the onus is upon you to prove that it is.

Perhaps the reason you did not support your view with scriptural proofs is because you know very well that “sola scriptura” is 100% unbiblical.

There is not one, not even one, passage of scripture that suggests that the bible is all we need for salvation. You are basing your beliefs on a man made tradition, and we all know what Christ had to say about those.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God…

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

here it is as these scriptures show, The word is god and was made flesh(Jesus) and as he says, he is the only way to the father, or salvation or heaven.