Where is free will when God puts his grace, visions and miracles in some people but not in others?

[LibralAteoJesus]

Some people are chosen by God by some obvious miracles, visions and grace, others not, where is the free will when mostly all of those who had visions, miracles turned into saints? but others who never had these chances or don’t have an ability to see god’s will turned into sinners?

In addition, even Jesus said: “may your will be done not mine”, where is free will when we have to live in God’s ways or we will be doomed? No other options.

 

[davidv]

Some people are chosen by God by some obvious miracles, visions and grace, others not, where is the free will when mostly all of those who had visions, miracles turned into saints? but others who never had these chances or don’t have an ability to see god’s will turned into sinners?

In addition, even Jesus said: “may your will be done not mine”, where is free will when we have to live in God’s ways or we will be doomed? No other options.

Given that we have at least those options and we are free to choose either, how does this deny free will?

Regardless of our circumstance we are free to do good, or not.

 

[dshix]

Given that we have at least those options and we are free to choose either, how does this deny free will?

Regardless of our circumstance we are free to do good, or not.

^This.

LibralAteoJesus, you haven’t actually said anything that contradicts free will. Whether some people get gifts of revelation or not, they are still free to decide.

Look at Judas. He saw Jesus’ miracles along with all the other apostles, but still chose to betray him. Free will.

In the case of other saints, they could have chosen to let their revelations, miracles, and visions puff them up with pride, thereby sending them to Hell. They could have made that choice, had they wished to.

 

[Aloysium]

Some people are chosen by God by some obvious miracles, visions and grace, others not, where is the free will when mostly all of those who had visions, miracles turned into saints? but others who never had these chances or don’t have an ability to see god’s will turned into sinners?

In addition, even Jesus said: “may your will be done not mine”, where is free will when we have to live in God’s ways or we will be doomed? No other options.

1. Matt 11: 21-22 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
2. I don’t see it as a matter of “My way or the highway.” God wants what is best for us; He wants us to be with Him in Heaven. You can choose otherwise.

 

[Joe_5859]

^This.

LibralAteoJesus, you haven’t actually said anything that contradicts free will. Whether some people get gifts of revelation or not, they are still free to decide.

Look at Judas. He saw Jesus’ miracles along with all the other apostles, but still chose to betray him. Free will.

In the case of other saints, they could have chosen to let their revelations, miracles, and visions puff them up with pride, thereby sending them to Hell. They could have made that choice, had they wished to.

And if there are people out there who had visions or witnessed miracles, but then did not choose God and simply ignored them, then we’d never hear about them.

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

Given that we have at least those options and we are free to choose either, how does this deny free will?

Regardless of our circumstance we are free to do good, or not.

These circumstances have a large influence over free will, you think Christianity would be the same without Paul’s vision?

 

[dshix]

And if there are people out there who had visions or witnessed miracles, but then did not choose God and simply ignored them, then we’d never hear about them.

Precisely.

These circumstances have a large influence over free will, you think Christianity would be the same without Paul’s vision?

No.

If Paul had failed, God would have given someone else the opportunity to give His message.

 

[petra22]

And if there are people out there who had visions or witnessed miracles, but then did not choose God and simply ignored them, then we’d never hear about them.

That’s what I was thinking. How many have had visions, miracles, etc… but chose to ignore them. Would we know about them??? Probably not. But thank God I have the free will to choose Him and not have to stay in the muck and mire (and fire!)

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

That’s what I was thinking. How many have had visions, miracles, etc… but chose to ignore them. Would we know about them??? Probably not. But thank God I have the free will to choose Him and not have to stay in the muck and mire (and fire!)

Where is our true free will then, when we have to follow his will or be doomed?

That is contradiction to free will.

According to this, if God made obvious, direct and undeniable visions to some people, very few would consider ignoring him just out of fear because no true free will is there, if they disobey his will they’ll risk their eternal soul.

 

[JamesATyler]

Where is our true free will then, when we have to follow his will or be doomed?

That is contradiction to free will.

According to this, if God made obvious, direct and undeniable visions to some people, very few would consider ignoring him just out of fear because no true free will is there, if they disobey his will they’ll risk their eternal soul.

I don’t think that your conclusion is true. One, there are people who believe in him and reject him. Two, even if he were a man who performed miracles and raised the dead there would still be people who would say “He does the things by an evil power.” Just knowing God exists isn’t even half the battle. If believing were the whole battle then every believing Christian would never commit a sin.

 

[dshix]

Where is our true free will then, when we have to follow his will or be doomed?

That is contradiction to free will.

No it isn’t. That is a non-sequitur.
How exactly do you not see that this logic is flawed?

According to this, if God made obvious, direct and undeniable visions to some people, very few would consider ignoring him just out of fear because no true free will is there, if they disobey his will they’ll risk their eternal soul.

Nope.

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

I don’t think that your conclusion is true. One, there are people who believe in him and reject him. Two, even if he were a man who performed miracles and raised the dead there would still be people who would say “He does the things by an evil power.” Just knowing God exists isn’t even half the battle. If believing were the whole battle then every believing Christian would never commit a sin.

I agree, there is some people who believe but reject God, but the most don’t, specially when the circumstances are strong to these people as direct contact by visions or miracles.

Many sinners have changed their ways when the circumstances changed because of actual visions and miracles, that without these contacts, they would hardly become saints.

 

[oldcelt]

Where is our true free will then, when we have to follow his will or be doomed?

That is contradiction to free will.

According to this, if God made obvious, direct and undeniable visions to some people, very few would consider ignoring him just out of fear because no true free will is there, if they disobey his will they’ll risk their eternal soul.

Add to that, according to most Christian sects, God already knew what was going to happen before he gave the person the “opportunity.” It does not add up to true free will…more like a director doing a stage play…except in the case of the Christian God you don’t even have a choice about being cast

 

[dshix]

Add to that, according to most Christian sects, God already knew what was going to happen before he gave the person the “opportunity.” It does not add up to true free will…more like a director doing a stage play…except in the case of the Christian God you don’t even have a choice about being cast

Non sequitur.

God could choose to give a person an opportunity fully knowing that they would fail Him. And He does. Countless Catholics are given Baptism, and receive Sanctifying Grace, the lifeblood of our souls. This gift is permanent and freely given. But God knows that many of us will reject and throw away the gift.

Just because we say “no” to the gift doesn’t mean He won’t give it in the first place.

 

[LoveGod102]

Where is our true free will then, when we have to follow his will or be doomed?

That is contradiction to free will.

According to this, if God made obvious, direct and undeniable visions to some people, very few would consider ignoring him just out of fear because no true free will is there, if they disobey his will they’ll risk their eternal soul.

It’s not follow his rule or be doomed. God isn’t some monster who wants us to earn his love. He isn’t watching from heaven, waiting for us to do something wrong so He can catch us. Some religions see God that way, but they are wrong. That isn’t who God is. God loves us.
It’s choose to love Him as best you can, and try your best to follow His will, or choose to reject His love by sinning and by rejecting the one who made and loved you be unhappy. If you choose up the last moment of your life to reject Him totally and completely, then when you die, you will choose hell. (I will explain why you would choose hell in a moment) If you repent, then no matter what you’ve done, or not done, God will forgive you. He is always offering us forgiveness. But we have to accept it. He won’t force it upon us, precisely because He gave us free will to choose whether to do good or bad.
Hell is being completely away from God, because that person chose to not love God. God doesn’t send the person there. They choose it. Why would someone choose hell? Because that person will have destroyed him/herself to the point that there is no way for him/her to be happy at all, and to be in heaven would be worse torture than being in hell. Why would heaven be worse for that person? Imagine spending all of eternity with someone whom you have completely rejected, someone you hate. That is what heaven would be for the person who chooses hell.

Imagine this: You have a friend and that friend does something very bad to you. You immediately say that you will forgive him, but he says “no I don’t want your forgiveness.” Then people blame YOU for that friend’s unhappiness. By our refusal to repent (turn away from our sins), we are saying to God, “I don’t want your forgiveness.” It makes as much sense for them to be mad at you in this situation, as it does to blame God for people being in hell.

 

[Aloysium]

Add to that, according to most Christian sects, God already knew what was going to happen before he gave the person the “opportunity.” It does not add up to true free will…more like a director doing a stage play…except in the case of the Christian God you don’t even have a choice about being cast

I would refer you to the Catechism to clarify what Catholics believe.

 

[oldcelt]

Non sequitur.

God could choose to give a person an opportunity fully knowing that they would fail Him. And He does. Countless Catholics are given Baptism, and receive Sanctifying Grace, the lifeblood of our souls. This gift is permanent and freely given. But God knows that many of us will reject and throw away the gift.

Just because we say “no” to the gift doesn’t mean He won’t give it in the first place.

My argument follows precisely from the preceding points and is consistent with its own premise so it is therefore NOT a Non sequitur. Your reply is an attempt to give cover to an omniscient, omnipotent (according to Christianity) creator god. If he knows in advance that a person will fail and be condemned to hell (also Christian) and still creates that person, he would be convicted of complicity in any court.

 

[oldcelt]

I would refer you to the Catechism to clarify what Catholics believe.

I am well aware of what Catholics believe. …having been one for 50 years. What point do you say I am missing?

 

[dshix]

My argument follows precisely from the preceding points and is consistent with its own premise so it is therefore NOT a Non sequitur. Your reply is an attempt to give cover to an omniscient, omnipotent (according to Christianity) creator god. If he knows in advance that a person will fail and be condemned to hell (also Christian) and still creates that person, he would be convicted of complicity in any court.

It is a non-sequitur when you say that because God knows what people will do before they do it, that means they must not have free will. Your conclusion does not follow your premise.

Study the difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

Your attempt to put God into a box is not logical, and your conclusions do not logically follow from reality. A God who is outside of time is not restricted by the limits of knowledge or time. To surmise that simply because He knows all before it occurs means that He must be complicit in doing it is absolutely illogical.

If I am incorrect on any of these counts (as I am sure you will find me to be) please provide logical reasons which are based on reality and do not contain any logical fallacies.

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

It’s not follow his rule or be doomed. God isn’t some monster who wants us to earn his love. He isn’t watching from heaven, waiting for us to do something wrong so He can catch us. Some religions see God that way, but they are wrong. That isn’t who God is. God loves us.
It’s choose to love Him as best you can, and try your best to follow His will, or choose to reject His love by sinning and by rejecting the one who made and loved you be unhappy. If you choose up the last moment of your life to reject Him totally and completely, then when you die, you will choose hell. (I will explain why you would choose hell in a moment) If you repent, then no matter what you’ve done, or not done, God will forgive you. He is always offering us forgiveness. But we have to accept it. He won’t force it upon us, precisely because He gave us free will to choose whether to do good or bad.
Hell is being completely away from God, because that person chose to not love God. God doesn’t send the person there. They choose it. Why would someone choose hell? Because that person will have destroyed him/herself to the point that there is no way for him/her to be happy at all, and to be in heaven would be worse torture than being in hell. Why would heaven be worse for that person? Imagine spending all of eternity with someone whom you have completely rejected, someone you hate. That is what heaven would be for the person who chooses hell.

Imagine this: You have a friend and that friend does something very bad to you. You immediately say that you will forgive him, but he says “no I don’t want your forgiveness.” Then people blame YOU for that friend’s unhappiness. By our refusal to repent (turn away from our sins), we are saying to God, “I don’t want your forgiveness.” It makes as much sense for them to be mad at you in this situation, as it does to blame God for people being in hell.

Sorry, but why the moments before death is what matters the most?