Where is Heaven?

[summa8447]

I was thinking… if God is creator and exists apart from creation, how does he exist “in” creation with the laws of nature? How does God exist outside creation and inside it to?

Isn’t heaven part of creation? Heaven, apparently is eternal, but is God’s abode which is outside of heaven and the universe also eternal or would we describe it using different terms?

Anyway, the universe is temporal not eternal and matter exists according to the laws extant in the universe. That is where our “physical” bodies exist. (Hmmm… what about the locus of our spirits/souls)

Jesus, Mary, Enoch, (and who knows?) all have resurrected bodies in heaven (glorified at least in Jesus case), so doesn’t that mean that heaven is in this universe where physical laws apply and not outside of time and space? If not, how do the bodies exist outside physical laws of time and space?

This is not some argument about whether or not God exists that I am saying this. I have always puzzled this one.

One thing I do not approve of for an answer though as I feel it is always an evasive answer is “it’s a mystery”. I mean, obviously it’s a mystery, that’s why I am asking.

Any doctors of the Church tackle this one?

Summa8447

 

[Katholish]

St. Thomas addresses this in the Summa, but “eternity” is spoken of in two different ways. On the other hand it can mean “outside of time” and this is the more “proper” meaning of eternity, but according to this definition, only God is eternal.

Eternity can also refer to an infinite amount of time, and it is in this sense that we experience eternity (because our souls are immortal).

Heaven is a physical place indeed, but also refers simply to the possession of the Beatific Vision (which can exist outside of the physical place of Heaven as in the case of Christ). Our experience of Heaven would seem to be primarily a matter of an infinite sucession of time, although since we participate in the divine nature in Heaven, there would seem to be a way that we participate also in God’s eternity (being outside of time), but this participation is obviously limited.

 

[summa8447]

St. Thomas addresses this in the Summa, but “eternity” is spoken of in two different ways. On the other hand it can mean “outside of time” and this is the more “proper” meaning of eternity, but according to this definition, only God is eternal.

Eternity can also refer to an infinite amount of time, and it is in this sense that we experience eternity (because our souls are immortal).

Heaven is a physical place indeed, but also refers simply to the possession of the Beatific Vision (which can exist outside of the physical place of Heaven as in the case of Christ). Our experience of Heaven would seem to be primarily a matter of an infinite sucession of time, although since we participate in the divine nature in Heaven, there would seem to be a way that we participate also in God’s eternity (being outside of time), but this participation is obviously limited.

Thanks for all your comments. I have Tour of the Summa. I’ll check that. I wonder if Augustine ever said anything about it? Hopefully there will be a few more comments here.

Summa8447

 

[twinc]

ah Summa - I heard a little song, only the other day,titled “Show me Heaven”.Heaven is a place we are all interested in going to,but few of us know much about it even though we have been told and heard a lot about it - btw what if in that million to one chance we make it and dont like it would it not then be hell.Down through the centuries,there have been thousands of books written about the subject of heaven.Some have been great theological tomes,some beautiful essays,others beautiful poems but now at last I have it in my grasp and so can you. Wait a moment,for first you have to get there no - so awhile ago I went out of my way and senses to guarantee heaven for appx 20 pence,there were no takers so I made a money back guarantee and still no takers.So now let them all try and make their own way with the odds heavily stacked against them.If one is planning going on a journey,is not a good idea to get a travel guide - so just you go and get a small paperback “A Travel Guide To Heaven” by Anthony Stefano[ISBN 0-553-81564-4] - have a safe journey and see you there sometime - twinc

 

[twinc]

btw Summa - you also ask some deep, profound and searching philosophical questions as regards time,materiality,physicality etc and where spirit,soul,heart,mind etc are located.Seers and sages and philosophers have pondered this/these questions,as in the case of heaven,for centuries.The answer/s,it seems,was/were under their noses - twinc

 

[teachccd]

ah Summa - I heard a little song, only the other day,titled “Show me Heaven”.Heaven is a place we are all interested in going to,but few of us know much about it even though we have been told and heard a lot about it - btw what if in that million to one chance we make it and dont like it would it not then be hell.Down through the centuries,there have been thousands of books written about the subject of heaven.Some have been great theological tomes,some beautiful essays,others beautiful poems but now at last I have it in my grasp and so can you. Wait a moment,for first you have to get there no - so awhile ago I went out of my way and senses to guarantee heaven for appx 20 pence,there were no takers so I made a money back guarantee and still no takers.So now let them all try and make their own way with the odds heavily stacked against them.If one is planning going on a journey,is not a good idea to get a travel guide - so just you go and get a small paperback “A Travel Guide To Heaven” by Anthony Stefano[ISBN 0-553-81564-4] - have a safe journey and see you there sometime - twinc

That is a great book. Twinc, I don’t know what it is but I like your posts. Sense of humor perhaps or whimsical style…peace…teachccd

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Earth was supposed to be renewed and evil defeated, so “heaven” was meant as a paradise here on this planet. This did not happen in the 1st century as expected so Christians started to say that heaven was more like a unearthly realm that some went to after death.

 

[twinc]

Earth was supposed to be renewed and evil defeated, so “heaven” was meant as a paradise here on this planet. This did not happen in the 1st century as expected so Christians started to say that heaven was more like a unearthly realm that some went to after death.

renewed by whom,how and when as also for evil defeated - twinc

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

renewed by whom,how and when as also for evil defeated - twinc

Many biblical scholars would say that Jesus and his followers had an Apocalyptic view of the world, meaning that they expected God to intervene in history and destroy the powers of evil and renew the earth. It was to be a supernatural event that would be done sometime within the generation that the first Christians belonged to.

 

[twinc]

Many biblical scholars would say that Jesus and his followers had an Apocalyptic view of the world, meaning that they expected God to intervene in history and destroy the powers of evil and renew the earth. It was to be a supernatural event that would be done sometime within the generation that the first Christians belonged to.

not so,not so it seems according to what Jesus had to say and He said even He did not know but gave us clues as to when it might be as did our first Pope Peter in his epistle - twinc

 

[Areopagite]

St. Thomas addresses this in the Summa, but “eternity” is spoken of in two different ways. On the other hand it can mean “outside of time” and this is the more “proper” meaning of eternity, but according to this definition, only God is eternal.

Eternity can also refer to an infinite amount of time, and it is in this sense that we experience eternity (because our souls are immortal).

Heaven is a physical place indeed, but also refers simply to the possession of the Beatific Vision (which can exist outside of the physical place of Heaven as in the case of Christ). Our experience of Heaven would seem to be primarily a matter of an infinite sucession of time, although since we participate in the divine nature in Heaven, there would seem to be a way that we participate also in God’s eternity (being outside of time), but this participation is obviously limited.

Beautifully put, Katholish. I second this.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

not so,not so it seems according to what Jesus had to say and He said even He did not know but gave us clues as to when it might be as did our first Pope Peter in his epistle - twinc

I have to admit that I struggle with understanding these prophecies but I look forward to His return.

 

[tonyrey]

I was thinking… if God is creator and exists apart from creation, how does he exist “in” creation with the laws of nature? How does God exist outside creation and inside it to?

“In God we live, move and have our being.”
God sustains all that He has created with His power of eternal love but He is not to be identified with the universe. That is pantheism. God transcends everything.

Isn’t heaven part of creation? Heaven, apparently is eternal, but is God’s abode which is outside of heaven and the universe also eternal or would we describe it using different terms?

Like everything else Heaven is in God but it is a state of **personal **union with God in which His love is reciprocated. Those who are in Hell are also sustained in existence by His love but they do not reciprocate His love.

Anyway, the universe is temporal not eternal and matter exists according to the laws extant in the universe. That is where our “physical” bodies exist. (Hmmm… what about the locus of our spirits/souls)

Those who are in Heaven have glorified bodies like Jesus. Spirits are immaterial and have no physical location.

Jesus, Mary, Enoch, (and who knows?) all have resurrected bodies in heaven (glorified at least in Jesus case), so doesn’t that mean that heaven is in this universe where physical laws apply and not outside of time and space? If not, how do the bodies exist outside physical laws of time and space?

God is not subject to the physical laws He has created. He can perform miracles not only in this world but also in the next. The Transfiguration prefigured the life of Jesus and of those who love Him in Heaven. The Resurrection enables us to share His love with our physical nature as well as our spiritual nature.