Where is THAT in the Qu'ran?

[planten]

Islam gives Muslim women the right / option to stipulate in their marriage contract the condition that their husband may not enter into another marriage without their consent.

Huh??.. Is this true?

Yes… I will repeat it again → Islam gives Muslim women the right / option to stipulate in their marriage contract the condition that their husband may not enter into another marriage without their consent.

And so, no Muslim women need to suffer the “humiliation” of seeing their husbands take a second, third or fourth wife, provided that they did indeed stipulate this condition in their marriage contracts.

Most Muslim women however see no need to put this condition in their marriage contract and indeed, many are happy to lawfully share their husbands with another woman as this would enable them to enjoy more private time on their own while at the same time enjoy all the benefits of staying married and being taken care of.

hamba you have descibed it beautifully, in very good words. Whatever you have written is 100% correct. The Muslim women have the permission to apply conditions in their marriage contracts (Khutba tun Nikah).

I had seen in S.A. pakistani ladies were querreling with the Arab ladies on a beach. The pakistani ladies complained that the Arab ladie sdid not take much care of their husbands. The Arab ladies contended that Indian / Pakistani ladies were too possesive and did not. let their husbands enjoy good life.

There are different ways of looking at things. In Arabia, sometime a young girl of 16 or 18 is happily married to a very old man (Shaikh). She is willing to marry the old man. The reason is as follows:

1. The first marriage of any girl should be with will and permission of her father. SHe may not exercise any (100%) choice in the selection of her husband.
2. The second marriage is at her will and nobody can tell whom to marry.

So as she gets married to an old man, he may be quite rich (wealthy, having many bukes or camels), she will serve him happily, play with him, even sing and dance for him and remain faithful in the house. At marriage, the young bride will get a lot of dowery. That money will belong to her.

That person may not live long. When he will die, the young wife will get a lot of money (property) in inheritance. And after that she (as a rich lady) is free to marry any person of her choice.

In all such things, there is nothing illicit affair involved.

 

[Jay53]

hamba you have descibed it beautifully, in very good words. Whatever you have written is 100% correct. The Muslim women have the permission to apply conditions in their marriage contracts (Khutba tun Nikah).

I had seen in S.A. pakistani ladies were querreling with the Arab ladies on a beach. The pakistani ladies complained that the Arab ladie sdid not take much care of their husbands. The Arab ladies contended that Indian / Pakistani ladies were too possesive and did not. let their husbands enjoy good life.

There are different ways of looking at things. In Arabia, sometime a young girl of 16 or 18 is happily married to a very old man (Shaikh). She is willing to marry the old man. The reason is as follows:

1. The first marriage of any girl should be with will and permission of her father. SHe may not exercise any (100%) choice in the selection of her husband.
2. The second marriage is at her will and nobody can tell whom to marry.

So as she gets married to an old man, he may be quite rich (wealthy, having many bukes or camels), she will serve him happily, play with him, even sing and dance for him and remain faithful in the house. At marriage, the young bride will get a lot of dowery. That money will belong to her.

That person may not live long. When he will die, the young wife will get a lot of money (property) in inheritance. And after that she (as a rich lady) is free to marry any person of her choice.

In all such things, there is nothing illicit affair involved.

This is horrible!! So a young girl has to marry a rich old man whom she doesn’t love and have sex with him just so she can inherit his wealth when he dies?!? And then, she is free to marry whomever she wishes?!?

 

[GraceDK]

Islam gives Muslim women the right / option to stipulate in their marriage contract the condition that their husband may not enter into another marriage without their consent.

Huh??.. Is this true?

Yes… I will repeat it again → Islam gives Muslim women the right / option to stipulate in their marriage contract the condition that their husband may not enter into another marriage without their consent.

And so, no Muslim women need to suffer the “humiliation” of seeing their husbands take a second, third or fourth wife, provided that they did indeed stipulate this condition in their marriage contracts.

Most Muslim women however see no need to put this condition in their marriage contract and indeed, many are happy to lawfully share their husbands with another woman as this would enable them to enjoy more private time on their own while at the same time enjoy all the benefits of staying married and being taken care of.

Yea I read about that rule before… I also read that no Imam likes to tell the women about it.
You know in your heart that polygamy is a HUMILIATION, precisely because you would never ever in all eternity share your wife with another man. The very though is repulsive to you. Man is stronger physically and have dominated the woman throughout history, just like the curse in Genesis prophesied, but the time of the Old Things are over. You are called to Pure Love… not the humiliating slavery that your prophet and which you display for us here every day.

Your last paragraph really shows how you have really been indoctrinated to defend teachings that are unworthy even to you: You write: “This (polygamy) would enable them (women) to enjoy more private time on their own while at the same time enjoy all the benefits of staying married and being taken care of”.
Do your women marry in order to be taken care of materially? Oh gosh… how can you say such nonsense… A woman would be treated like a slave in order for her to be grateful for “being left alone” by her husband while he went to have sex with his other wives.
How horrible is your thinking.
You don’t know a thing about the love that is between man and woman in a healthy marriage. Love seeks union and exclusiveness.
Would you like for your wife to marry some other men so you could “have some more private time on your own”??? listen to your self. Do you wish for LOVE or domination? Love and freedom go together. So does LOVE and RESPECT.
You really do talk about women like a piece of property
I’d rather be poor and alone than being with a man who lived in his lustful flesh and married other women…

Let me give you instead the Living Word from the New Testament:
Men, love your wives, like Christ has loved the church and given His Life for it, to sanctify it by cleansing it in the bath of water by the Word, to bring forth the Church before Himself in glory, without the least spot or wrinkle, holy and without blemish. This is how the men ought to love their wives in the same way that they love their own body.** The ****one who loves his wife loves himself. ** Therefore a man must leave his father and mother and bind himself to his wife and these two shall become one flesh. This contains a big secret - I refer to Christ and the Church. But its also applies to you, each of you must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must have deep respect for her husband.

Do you think a slave loves her master? Do you think humiliation fosters true love? Do you think objectification gives birth to faithfulness?
In my time in Israel I saw so much infidelity on the part of Moslem men. Your teaching would imply why that is… if a man does not respect his wife enough to have her only, then what would keep him from adultery when his flesh urged him?.. nothing of cause. The whole foundation of your human relationships are sick.

Would that you would read the New Testament/Covenant today and have your eyes opened to the LOVE that you are called to actualize in your own life, Hamba.

May the Lord free you from the darkness of a manmade religion and guide into the freedom of the Son.

Peace from Grace

 

[planten]

This is horrible!! So a young girl has to marry a rich old man whom she doesn’t love and have sex with him just so she can inherit his wealth when he dies?!? And then, she is free to marry whomever she wishes?!?

Jay, Love for the husband is there and real. Love cannot be denied. But there is no pre-marital sex or Pseudo-Love (affair). There is no trial and error.

 

[jakasaki]

Well said Mr. JC,very well said!!! …

Now, how about that mince pie ~ do you have any more?

 

[jakasaki]

Too bad flights out of NY are delayed due to yesterdays blizzard, otherwise I’d be right over!

 

[jakasaki]

Jay, Love for the husband is there and real. Love cannot be denied. But there is no pre-marital sex or Pseudo-Love (affair). There is no trial and error.

I thank God everyday that I was NOT born into a muslim family…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

:console:

Because that was off topic.

You forget Hamba’s unwritten rule: his topics are the only topics allowed to be discussed. Anything else - even the OP topic - is to be disregarded.

This is horrible!! So a young girl has to marry a rich old man whom she doesn’t love and have sex with him just so she can inherit his wealth when he dies?!? And then, she is free to marry whomever she wishes?!?

No no no no, you’re distorting it completely…

A young girl has to marry a rich old man whom she doesn’t love only if he dreams about her at night, and have sex with him just so she can inherit his wealth when he dies.

Incidentally, there’s moment in the life of Aisha that has always interested me:

Narrated Aisha:
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, “Can a lady give herself (to a man)?” But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).’ (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), “I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311; emphasis mine]

I’ve always wondered…was this child-like innocence and naivete…or was Aisha secretly calling Mohammad out?

 

[jakasaki]

You forget Hamba’s unwritten rule: his topics are the only topics allowed to be discussed. Anything else - even the OP topic - is to be disregarded.

No no no no, you’re distorting it completely…

A young girl has to marry a rich old man whom she doesn’t love only if he dreams about her at night, and have sex with him just so she can inherit his wealth when he dies.

Incidentally, there’s moment in the life of Aisha that has always interested me:

Narrated Aisha:
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, “Can a lady give herself (to a man)?” But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).’ (33.51) **I said (to the Prophet), “I feel that **your ****Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311; emphasis mine]

I’ve always wondered…was this child-like innocence and naivete…or was Aisha secretly calling Mohammad out?

This hadith has bugged me as well. Notice the bold font #4 above. It states “your” lord and it does not state “our” lord.

That verse makes you wonder, doesn’t it?

Perhaps the Shia have it right after all that Aisha poised mohamad and not the Jewess as stated in the hadiths. HMMMMMMM…

 

[planten]

Please be calm. You have all misunderstood things. The Muslim girls are not working girls. They have not mixed with men to know them. Your society (free for all) is different. The ladies and young girls do not know any one in Muslim society, except their own very close relatives. There is an Insulation to avoid any sparks and misconception.

Please do not mind. The story of a young girl getting married with a very old man is not common. It is rare case that such things do happen. All of you have looked upon it as if the father is the enemy of the daughter. That is not the case. You have ignored the love of the father.

You are christian and talking so much about Father, Father. But you forget the love of the father for his children. Will the father try to damage the well being of his daughter?? No. Not at all. Specially a daughter who has not seen a man.

Please try to reconsider things and look upon them as it applies to segregated Muslim society. What you are having now had not been practiced even in the early christian society. I do not see that early christians were wrong. But I am sure the christian women did not mix with men freely in those days.

 

[Sam_777]

polygamy is far from the LOVE that God called us to.

well said…http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

There will never be a woman in history who did not suffer jealousy, sadness and humiliation when her husband practiced polygamy…

I agree with you on this one, that is really frustrating…

Islam gives Muslim women the right / option to stipulate in their marriage contract the condition that their husband may not enter into another marriage without their consent.

I think you know that Muslim clerics are divided into that matter (since there is no direct instructions regarding it), some of them say the woman can write such condition and some of them say she cannot, and both sides have indirect references to back their claims.

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Hamba.
I would like you to answer to post 92 which I wrote.
If it’s too long for you, at least I would like you to read the quote from Sacred Scripture written in lilac colour, and tell me in all honesty if you dont think this is a more worthy instruction to guide the love of man and woman in holy matrimony, than that which is exemplified in your prophet’s life with numerous wives and even sex with a child.

This morning in the news paper I again read about the sad conditions that young women and men live under in Pakistan, guided by the example of Islam. Especially among the uneducated masses child marriage is still rather widespread. In the article I read, a 10 year old boy and 8 year old girl had been married to each other. The boy, now a man, said that when he was given without any free consent into this marriage, by his parents, it was the worst day of his life.
Child marriage is widespread in the Middle East, and its up to you Moslems to face the challenge and get that abominable practices out of your system and start living according to the dignity of the human person, most exemplified in that Christ died for us out of love.

If you want to know more about the deep integrity and worthiness of love and sexuality from a Christian standpoint I warmly recommend to you Pope John Paul 2. teachings on the Theology of the Body.

 

[seraphime2008]

Please be calm. You have all misunderstood things. The Muslim girls are not working girls. They have not mixed with men to know them. Your society (free for all) is different. The ladies and young girls do not know any one in Muslim society, except their own very close relatives. There is an Insulation to avoid any sparks and misconception.

Please do not mind. The story of a young girl getting married with a very old man is not common. It is rare case that such things do happen. All of you have looked upon it as if the father is the enemy of the daughter. That is not the case. You have ignored the love of the father.

You are christian and talking so much about Father, Father. But you forget the love of the father for his children. Will the father try to damage the well being of his daughter?? No. Not at all. Specially a daughter who has not seen a man.

Please try to reconsider things and look upon them as it applies to segregated Muslim society. What you are having now had not been practiced even in the early christian society. I do not see that early christians were wrong. But I am sure the christian women did not mix with men freely in those days.

Planten…you’ve repeated the same old songs again and again. Have you ever learned that:

1. the society of the western people are not to be taken as christian . They are secular society !
2. Eventhough that some christians may fall into the sin of lust, they never in the first place have taken God as the one who allowed them to do such things! As for Islam, Allah has assured muslims to do exactly what we consider as “filthy”!

 

[hamba2han]

Dear Hamba.
I would like you to answer to post 92 which I wrote.
If it’s too long for you, at least I would like you to read the quote from Sacred Scripture written in lilac colour, and tell me in all honesty if you dont think this is a more worthy instruction to guide the love of man and woman in holy matrimony, than that which is exemplified in your prophet’s life with numerous wives and even sex with a child.

This morning in the news paper I again read about the sad conditions that young women and men live under in Pakistan, guided by the example of Islam. Especially among the uneducated masses child marriage is still rather widespread. In the article I read, a 10 year old boy and 8 year old girl had been married to each other. The boy, now a man, said that when he was given without any free consent into this marriage, by his parents, it was the worst day of his life.
Child marriage is widespread in the Middle East, and its up to you Moslems to face the challenge and get that abominable practices out of your system and start living according to the dignity of the human person, most exemplified in that Christ died for us out of love.

If you want to know more about the deep integrity and worthiness of love and sexuality from a Christian standpoint I warmly recommend to you Pope John Paul 2. teachings on the Theology of the Body.

It would be pointless for me to say anything about those verses from the New Testament because not all women would have the same desires and inclinations.

For women like yourself, they cannot tolerate living in a polygamous marriage and so the best thing for them to do would be to stipulate the condition in their marriage contracts whereby their husbands need to obtain their consent first if they wish to take another wife.

However, there are many women who have a different view than yours and they would actually like the idea of not having to continually attend to the needs of their husband everyday of their lives and therefore for them to live in a polygamous marriage would enable them to spend some valuable time away from their duties as a wife while at the same time they would get to enjoy all the rights and privileges that they are entitled to of being a wife and mother.

Many women who live in a polygamous marriage would actually prefer NOT to have it any other way.

However, for other women like yourself who prefer living in a monogamous marriage, all they need to do is to stipulate it in their marriage contracts.

How does this adversely affect the rights of women in Islam?

The answer is that it absolutely does not… and on the contrary, I would say that it actually enhances a woman’s rights as a wife and mother to her husband’s children.

 

[schaick]

Women are simply property in Islam:
2.223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him, and give good tidings to those who believe.

4.34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great.

nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/13-Dec-2009/Girl-sold-in-open-auction

JACOBABAD – A 20-year-old girl was auctioned at village Badani Bhutto of Taluka Kashmore in consideration of Rs2,70,000 on Saturday.

Azizan, daughter of late Allah Bux Bhutto, was divorced on the allegation of Karo-kari some time back. She is stated to be mother of two children and was residing with her brother who held the open auction for her ‘sale’ at village Badani Bhutto.

A large number of villagers showed interest in the auction that started with Rs50,000 and ended at Rs270,000. Bilawal Bhutto, 50, of the same village purchased her for the said amount. Initially he paid Rs210,000 for the girl.

Maulana Azizullah Bhutto performed their nikah later.

It is irony of the situation that no one condemned the inhuman act. The groom will take the bride to his house after paying the rest of the amount. The auction money was distributed equally among all the brothers of the girl.

 

[GraceDK]

It would be pointless for me to say anything about those verses from the New Testament because not all women would have the same desires and inclinations.
For women like yourself, they cannot tolerate living in a polygamous marriage and so the best thing for them to do would be to stipulate the condition in their marriage contracts whereby their husbands need to obtain their consent first if they wish to take another wife.

**“Not all women are alike”… hmm. Tell you what, if a person is treated like a slave or property all their life they start to think this is normal. I once read an article about a matriarchal culture in north-China where the women practised polygamy. Do you think that the inclination/personal preference of these woman should also be respected? I guess not, eh?
According to Christianity, what is unworthy behaviour for a woman is no less worthy for a man. **

However, there are many women who have a different view than yours and they would actually like the idea of not having to continually attend to the needs of their husband everyday of their lives and therefore for them to live in a polygamous marriage would enable them to spend some valuable time away from their duties as a wife while at the same time they would get to enjoy all the rights and privileges that they are entitled to of
being a wife and mother.

**“Attend the needs”? I can’t follow your reasoning. According to Christianity, man and woman take care of the needs of their spouse. The biggest need to take care of is to love the other person as one self.
You have so much to learn about the beauty of serving in love. That is also not a burden but a joy. When a woman is given the respect and love from her Christian husband, which is the only thing worthy, and that also involves faithfulness and exclusiveness, she gladly serves him. and he gladly serves her because of his great love. If he was to be disloyal and have a divided heart, then you are right, the woman will no longer serve him with pleasure, but her life will become heavy. **

Many women who live in a polygamous marriage would actually prefer NOT to have it any other way.

Maybe, especially affter having been brainwashed or learned that one must be “a good muslim” by looking up to the holy prophet of Allah. You know hamba that there exists a thing called a sect? These are groups that drill wholly inhuman stuff into their followers heads and make these followers do even damage on themselves without questioning. I aks that you become fully the man that God intended you to be by starting to ask critical questions about your prophet’s behaviour. Its noteworthy that there is a growing number of women in the Islamic countries who make organizations and speak out against the humiliating practice of polygamy. In your heart of hearts you have to understand why.
Because you would not want to share your wife with any other man either.

However, for other women like yourself who prefer living in a monogamous marriage, all they need to do is to stipulate it in their marriage contracts.

And the man need not stipulate the same thing?..oh of course not., Because no one in the right mind wants to share their spouse whom they love with another person sexually. And no man who truly loves his wife would ever put her through such hell because of his own lust.

How does this adversely affect the rights of women in Islam?
The answer is that it absolutely does not… and on the contrary, I would say that it actually enhances a woman’s rights as a wife and mother to her husband’s children.

**Well, then by all means, if the women are so happy, why dont you allow your brothers to be one of severel husbands to one lady? Since it’s such a pleasurable arrangement, surely we cannot deny them that. By the way… it’s not “husbands children”… thats another thing Islam does not get: Children belong to both parents equally, not only to their father. Since Christian spouses become one body and mind in exclusive and pure love, this is not a problem for us. But Islam has truly made war between the genders.

There is so much darkness in your religion… and the fact that you sit here and defend the undefendable, just makes me more and more sad and more and more repulsed at the ideology that made you into something less that what God wants you to be.
May the God-Love have mercy on you and teach you how to love heroically and make a total gift of love out of your self… this is the purpose of your life, love, not use, domination, and lust.

Peace**

 

[staffsgt7]

polygamy as told by Nonie Darwish in her book Now They Call Me Infidel should be required reading of any fool who thinks that polygamy is a good thing for the woman, the children and the men.

If thinking that a young girl would enjoy an old goat touching her is beyond any reasoning that I can muster. Taking him for a fool, and his money, might work out for a tiny minority but most have to ‘share the loot’ with other wives and children. To think that an old goat made it to his senior years without their barrel of wives and kids is only a fairy tale siince in Muslim minds the bachelor state is not acceptable.

We keep hearing about all the rights of women while ignoring that in Sharia laws it is very discriminatory AGAINST women.

Darwish: The majority of Muslim women are oppressed and that is due to Islamic sharia law which severely discriminates against women. Even the most educated and powerful Muslim women are faced with a legal system that is very discriminatory against women. Muslim women start the marital relationship from a weaker position. The Muslim marriage contract itself is unfair to women because Muslim men can add three more wives if he wishes. That changes the dynamic of husband/wife relationship even if a Muslim man does not exercise this right. Polygamy has a devastating impact on families. There are chronic social ills and tragedies stemming from this single right.

Polygamy has devastating effects on women to women relationships, husband to wife relationships and on the upbringing of children.

Sharia law allows polygamy and wife-beating, and only men can acquire an easy divorce. Although many Muslim men have only one wife, the damage to the husband-wife relationship begins in the Muslim marriage contract. The marriage contract has three spaces to be filled in by the groom with the names and addresses of additional wives should he have any. A Muslim man in the wedding ceremony does not pledge loyalty to his wife, and the wife cannot expect it. A man’s loyalty to his wife is optional, and a Muslim woman who has it must thank her lucky stars.

In contrast, the penalty for a woman’s extramarital sexual indiscretion is death by stoning or beheading. And rape is a crime under Sharia law, but the criminal and guilty party is always the female, regardless of age and circumstances. …read on…

Equality would be allowing the women to have the exact, same rights as a man - polygamy, etc.

 

[staffsgt7]

There is so much darkness in your religion… and the fact that you sit here and defend the undefendable, just makes me more and more sad and more and more repulsed at the ideology that made you into something less that what God wants you to be.
May the God-Love have mercy on you and teach you how to love heroically and make a total gift of love out of your self… this is the purpose of your life, love, not use, domination, and lust.

Peace

Have you been able to find anything about Islam that is worth defending? Once I started really researching into it, I found less and less until it became a zero defense.

It is no wonder they have to instill fear into people if they want to leave, or even question Islam.

 

[GraceDK]

Have you been able to find anything about Islam that is worth defending? Once I started really researching into it, I found less and less until it became a zero defense.

It is no wonder they have to instill fear into people if they want to leave, or even question Islam.

Dear friend.
Indeed I found something priceless to defend about Islam.
The Muslim.
Why do I care?.. I see the suffering and blindness that comes from sick systems.
It seems that every era and every people has it’s own ideology to fight, Facism, Communism and Nazism are only some… -but the system that leads the individual to the abyss can be muct smaller still, much more invisible -… Today we have Islam outside us… there are those who are trapped inside it, those who are indifferent to it, and those who see the madness and evil for what it is. These latter must fight against it.

As for atheistic secularism, which is the alternative given to many Moslems when they come to the West, its a system of decadence that throws the Muslim into the arms of fanatism to protect himself against it… Many people in the West are well educated and civilised but the image is this; that the devil so tightly has embraced modern society that we do not see what’s embracing us anymore… You get the image I am sure. We call slavery “freedom”.
You may start by looking at the view of sexuality in societies where adultery, fornication, public nudity, abortion, prostitution and pornography are regarded as natural, where concepts such as sin and shame are denied as part of human experience- indeed as something that makes us human (imagine a person who cannot feel shame… a terrible thought, no?)… Sexuality is one of the most valuable things in human life, one that calls for respect and protection… its of the things that every religious society has protected and guarded throughout history( in Christianity sexual intercourse is seen as the utmost expression of holy love between man and wife, in an exclusive and creating act). Today the world-view of “the happy savage” makes our young people slide their wrists… and we want to teach the Muslims?
Like Islam, modern secularism does not respect the deepest things about the dignity of the human person and thus about man’s call to love and be loved, making a himself gift of love and thereby finding himself.

As Padre Pio once said: one cannot fight satan with satan.
It has the same root… the degradation and objectivation.
We need to start with ourselves as modern societies and seek out the values on which we rest our right to be called civilised compared to the barbarity of Islam
.
Here the Church has the key… the only key for the individual and society: the Love of Christ.

 

[dzheremi]

Very well said, GraceDK. God bless you.