Where is THAT in the Qu'ran?

[staffsgt7]

Basically, you are talking about the human being. I was talking about Islam though.

I don’t see the Catholic Church doing too much about Islam and making sure that its followers are NOT falling for the propaganda they put out. They are in what I call in appeasement to them and occassionally make people aware of the suffering of others in Muslim lands, but that is all. I don’t see, or read too much else that the Church does. I read junk like this! I read mixed messages from the Catholic Church all the time especially the Pope kissing that book, the Koran. The Protestants do understand the problem though.

They seem to understand the difference between the human being and Islam. I don’t see that same knowledge coming out of the Catholic Church. Some individual Catholics understand the difference but not the Catholic Church overall.

 

[dzheremi]

Well, the Catholic Church is, if you will, much more conciliatory towards Islam than is probably wise to be. It is important to remember that as an organization in the world, it must practice at least some degree of “realpolitik”. This is really no different than the sort of attitude needed to keep, say, the Red Cross functioning in Muslim-majority countries. Sure, it sucks, but what’s the alternative? If you want to help people regardless of their religion, that means you need to treat them with kindness regardless of how much you disagree with their faith.

I’m not saying I like it, but then I’m sure most of the Christian leaders who signed the infamous (awful!) “A Common Word” document (I’m sure you’re well aware of it) probably didn’t like it, either. They either didn’t read it closely enough, or are concerned for the Christian minorities in Muslim lands. The real question that each individual needs to answer is whether or not their personal dislike of Islam is so great that they cannot phrase their objections in such a way so that they are listened to by the other side. Using this message board as an example, I can say that for me I’ve had a roughly equal amount of “You’re an intolerant jerk/Allah will punish you” type of comments and “I changed my mind about Christians because of people like you” type of comments. Guess which one helps me to continue the often-maddening exercise of dialogue with Muslims here?

 

[GraceDK]

Basically, you are talking about the human being. I was talking about Islam though.

I don’t see the Catholic Church doing too much about Islam and making sure that its followers are NOT falling for the propaganda they put out. They are in what I call in appeasement to them and occassionally make people aware of the suffering of others in Muslim lands, but that is all. I don’t see, or read too much else that the Church does. I read junk like this! I read mixed messages from the Catholic Church all the time especially the Pope kissing that book, the Koran. The Protestants do understand the problem though.

They seem to understand the difference between the human being and Islam. I don’t see that same knowledge coming out of the Catholic Church. Some individual Catholics understand the difference but not the Catholic Church overall.

What does it gain a person to win the whole world but to pay with her soul?

I was talking about Islam… You asked about something worth defending: I say, the human person… the muslim. Therefore we must present him/her with health, and not another sickness(atheism) in the place of the sickness that person left behind.

As for what you say about the Church. You are right… the church is weak today… furthermore there has been confusion in the time of the 2. Vatican Council.
Pope’s can and do err… I can only see Pope John Paul 2nd’s kissing the Quran as error. He has done a whole lot when it comes to the collapse of the iron curtain and communism in Europe.
He has written extraordinarily well about the sexual revolution, that will save those that listen, from the snares of the modern western objectification and meterialism when it comes love and responsibility.
But he did no know anything about the Qurans teachings.

Do read the New Testament and pray as best you can, even asking God to prove Himself to you if He really exists!

The protestant world is right about Islam, and you are right about that. But its more important, in my view, to know who Jesus is, than to know that islam is utterly wretched. When I see you are an atheist, I cannot help but point that out.

Peace be with you.

 

[GraceDK]

. It is important to remember that as an organization in the world, it must practice at least some degree of “realpolitik”.

Yet the Church is not an organisation, its not the red-cross. Jesus Christ did not have a “real-politik”. He had only the truth and that got Him crucified.
The Church is not a place for politicians and cowards.

Love we must, but Love and Truth go together.

 

[staffsgt7]

Well, the Catholic Church is, if you will, much more conciliatory towards Islam than is probably wise to be. It is important to remember that as an organization in the world, it must practice at least some degree of “realpolitik”. This is really no different than the sort of attitude needed to keep, say, the Red Cross functioning in Muslim-majority countries. Sure, it sucks, but what’s the alternative? If you want to help people regardless of their religion, that means you need to treat them with kindness regardless of how much you disagree with their faith.

I’m not saying I like it, but then I’m sure most of the Christian leaders who signed the infamous (awful!) “A Common Word” document (I’m sure you’re well aware of it) probably didn’t like it, either. They either didn’t read it closely enough, or are concerned for the Christian minorities in Muslim lands. The real question that each individual needs to answer is whether or not their personal dislike of Islam is so great that they cannot phrase their objections in such a way so that they are listened to by the other side. Using this message board as an example, I can say that for me I’ve had a roughly equal amount of “You’re an intolerant jerk/Allah will punish you” type of comments and “I changed my mind about Christians because of people like you” type of comments. Guess which one helps me to continue the often-maddening exercise of dialogue with Muslims here?

Thanks for the response. No matter what you say about Islam if it is objectionable you will be bashed so get used to it. They expect that you accept Islam and Mohammed is their prophet and that is that. No more questions should be asked from you because you are an infidel an unbeliever. Some of the comments by the Muslims on this forum are expected because they think their salvation depends on sanctioned deception to promote Islam. One cannot let a lie stand as it is no matter what ohers think of you. Especially if that lie is harmful to others more than being bashed.

How to phrase in a nice manner that Mohammed was what he was? Seriously!? He is so disgusting an individual that I cannot figure out how they tell themselves that he wasn’t. I am not talking about the regular Muslim who might not know that live in Muslim lands, but I do expect more from the Muslims who have access to information that live in the West. Islam’s history is terrible. How they can squirt perfume over it and expect dung to smell like roses is beyond me. It is only dung with a smell of perfume hanging over it that eventually dissipates and the dung is still there.

 

[dzheremi]

Yet the Church is not an organisation, its not the red-cross. Jesus Christ did not have a “real-politik”. He had only the truth and that got Him crucified.
The Church is not a place for politicians and cowards.

I agree with all this, but I also think it is overly simplistic and naive.

Love we must, but Love and Truth go together.

Don’t tell ME. Tell that to the Church that tells you that Muslims and Christians together worship the “one, true God”.

 

[dzheremi]

Thanks for the response. No matter what you say about Islam if it is objectionable you will be bashed so get used to it. They expect that you accept Islam and Mohammed is their prophet and that is that. No more questions should be asked from you because you are an infidel an unbeliever. Some of the comments by the Muslims on this forum are expected because they think their salvation depends on sanctioned deception to promote Islam. One cannot let a lie stand as it is no matter what ohers think of you. Especially if that lie is harmful to others more than being bashed.

I agree with you on all counts here. That’s why I made a point of saying I’ve experienced both here from Muslims. If I am too pointed, then I am being a liar/deceiver/kuffar/etc. If I am within their personal boundaries of what they find acceptable, then I am someone who is good and kind. I am saying that the first group (the vehemently anti-everything that isn’t Islam) can claim that Allah will punish me in the hereafter until their faces turn blue. I don’t care. They’re too far lost to be reached by the likes of me. But they also don’t make the existence of the second group any less worthy of consideration, even if ultimately nothing comes from it. I don’t feel that it is ever wrong to get along with people to whatever extent you can without sacrificing your principles.

How to phrase in a nice manner that Mohammed was what he was? Seriously!? He is so disgusting an individual that I cannot figure out how they tell themselves that he wasn’t. I am not talking about the regular Muslim who might not know that live in Muslim lands, but I do expect more from the Muslims who have access to information that live in the West. Islam’s history is terrible. How they can squirt perfume over it and expect dung to smell like roses is beyond me. It is only dung with a smell of perfume hanging over it that eventually dissipates and the dung is still there.

I know what you mean. I started a whole thread on this a long time ago about how we can’t NOT say that Muhammad is a pedophile, a rapist, a false prophet, etc. because to us that’s what he is, regardless of how upset it makes Muslims. We just don’t have any other words for someone who engages in the sort of behavior that Muhammad and his followers did (and still do!), so if the shoe fits, then damn it, you’re gonna wear it as far as we’re concerned. It actually got a pretty good response from some Muslims, from what I can remember, because it was phrased in a way that was not unnecessarily rude. I think many Muslims here know that it does them no good to try to refute facts as they are recorded in Islamic writings. Bukhari, et al. are NOT anti-Muslim, and certainly Muhammad was not either!

 

[GraceDK]

I agree with all this, but I also think it is overly simplistic and naive.

Don’t tell ME. Tell that to the Church that tells you that Muslims and Christians together worship the “one, true God”.

Believe me brother I do tell every Catholic I meet ( I am quite a passionate person who carry my thoughts on my sleeve)… and I meet many good Catholics on my way who agree with me. So I have faith that even the Pope agrees… we just need to change that misunderstanding in the CCC

As for naivete… I’m sure the fishermen that Jesus chose to lead His Church were also “naive”. They were certainly not diplomatic. I’d rather be on the side of those who say the Truth than on the side of those politicians and philosophers that loose themselves in worldly ways. Indeed if our actions and life resembled the Acts of the Apostles more, we would not need to be political… our actions would speak louder than any diplomacy.

Peace and I hope you find a Church home full of life and zeal

 

[dzheremi]

I guess I haven’t explained myself properly. I don’t think it is naive in the slightest to be as the fishermen who followed our Lord and Savior. I think it is naive to assume that the Catholic Church, by virtue of its being a religious body, does not also function at least in some ways like any other (non-religious) organization when it comes to working together or dialoging with other organizations that might not share every point of its dogma. As a result of this, it emphasizes or creates some commonality where another person who is outside of it might say “this is stretching things to an unacceptable degree”, at which point calls to practice “charity in truth” kind of go out the window.

 

[spn82756]

Have you been able to find anything about Islam that is worth defending? Once I started really researching into it, I found less and less until it became a zero defense.

It is no wonder they have to instill fear into people if they want to leave, or even question Islam.

Hi staffsgt7…

I can’t argue with much of what you say here. This thread beckons back to a thread I started a while ago…and that you participated in. Gabriel, the Annunciation, and Islam .

If the angel Gabriel announced that Mary was to conceive and give birth to God incarnate… then how can the fearful sight that Mohammad encountered many times be the angel Gabriel.

It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[staffsgt7]

I agree with you on all counts here. That’s why I made a point of saying I’ve experienced both here from Muslims. If I am too pointed, then I am being a liar/deceiver/kuffar/etc. If I am within their personal boundaries of what they find acceptable, then I am someone who is good and kind. I am saying that the first group (the vehemently anti-everything that isn’t Islam) can claim that Allah will punish me in the hereafter until their faces turn blue. I don’t care. They’re too far lost to be reached by the likes of me. But they also don’t make the existence of the second group any less worthy of consideration, even if ultimately nothing comes from it. I don’t feel that it is ever wrong to get along with people to whatever extent you can without sacrificing your principles.

I know what you mean. I started a whole thread on this a long time ago about how we can’t NOT say that Muhammad is a pedophile, a rapist, a false prophet, etc. because to us that’s what he is, regardless of how upset it makes Muslims. We just don’t have any other words for someone who engages in the sort of behavior that Muhammad and his followers did (and still do!), so if the shoe fits, then damn it, you’re gonna wear it as far as we’re concerned. It actually got a pretty good response from some Muslims, from what I can remember, because it was phrased in a way that was not unnecessarily rude. I think many Muslims here know that it does them no good to try to refute facts as they are recorded in Islamic writings. Bukhari, et al. are NOT anti-Muslim, and certainly Muhammad was not either!

Thanks again.

 

[staffsgt7]

Believe me brother I do tell every Catholic I meet ( I am quite a passionate person who carry my thoughts on my sleeve)… and I meet many good Catholics on my way who agree with me. So I have faith that even the Pope agrees… we just need to change that misunderstanding in the CCC

As for naivete… I’m sure the fishermen that Jesus chose to lead His Church were also “naive”. They were certainly not diplomatic. I’d rather be on the side of those who say the Truth than on the side of those politicians and philosophers that loose themselves in worldly ways. Indeed if our actions and life resembled the Acts of the Apostles more, we would not need to be political… our actions would speak louder than any diplomacy.

Peace and I hope you find a Church home full of life and zeal

I don’t find you naive I do find the Catholic Church behaving naive or political or however you want to say it. It is the same behavior they showed with Hitler and the Nazis. They are appeasers. Not all of them were. We will always find exceptions to the rule but many were. I see that in the Catholic Church now.

And don’t feel like I am picking on you. Atheists and secularists are for the most part in MAJOR appeasement towards Islam. Islam wouldn’t be getting such a boost in many lands if it weren’t for their help. Except for the Chicoms. They seem to have a pretty good handle on it, I think. At least they know how to respond to the uprisings. And it hasn’t been politically correct either, so far.

 

[staffsgt7]

Hi staffsgt7…

I can’t argue with much of what you say here. This thread beckons back to a thread I started a while ago…and that you participated in. Gabriel, the Annunciation, and Islam .

If the angel Gabriel announced that Mary was to conceive and give birth to God incarnate… then how can the fearful sight that Mohammad encountered many times be the angel Gabriel.

It just doesn’t make sense.

To me it is so obvious she told him that it was some sort of an angel to shut Mohammed up that I don’t see why anyone else doesn’t see it.

 

[spn82756]

To me it is so obvious she told him that it was some sort of an angel to shut Mohammed up that I don’t see why anyone else doesn’t see it.

I find us on the same page.

 

[jakasaki]

I find us on the same page.

Welcome back Steve…

 

[jakasaki]

Hi staffsgt7…

I can’t argue with much of what you say here. This thread beckons back to a thread I started a while ago…and that you participated in. Gabriel, the Annunciation, and Islam .

If the angel Gabriel announced that Mary was to conceive and give birth to God incarnate… **then how can the fearful sight that Mohammad encountered many times be the angel Gabriel. **
It just doesn’t make sense.

This is why all along we’ve been saying it could NOT have been The Angel Gabriel who appeared to mohamad.

And where is it written in the OT & NT that The Angel Gabriel would bring down a new “book”?

 

[spn82756]

Welcome back Steve…

Thank you!!

 

[spn82756]

And where is it written in the OT & NT that The Angel Gabriel would bring down a new “book”?

Especially a book denying the divinity of Jesus. There is only one being that could benefit from that.

 

[spn82756]

Let us examine the miracles that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed with the help of Allah and in particular the miracle of the splitting of the moon.

That’s assuming we believe the moon was split. Even some Muslims don’t believe that.

This miracle was done to demonstrate to the pagan Arabs in Makkah the supreme power of Allah and that the idols they were worshiping were not capable of doing anything.

If indeed the devil had the ability to split the moon (which of course he most certainly does not), then why would he do something that would cause the pagan Arabs to lose faith in their idols and to instead worship the One Lord of all the Universe?

**Well…for one thing…at that time there was a growing Arab population of Christians. **He had good reason to bring down the beliefs of the growing Christian community…and would use any means at his disposal.

It did not benefit Satan in any way to make the pagan Arabs of Makkah lose faith in their idols and hence cause them to come much closer to their Creator.

See just above.

And bear in mind that this practice of questioning miracles as being mere acts of the devil is a double-edge sword which can also be used against miracles in Christianity.

Therefore, it is best for Christians to abandon this line of reasoning and they should instead turn the tables on Muslims who say that the Crucifixion was merely an illusion by themselves asserting that this event of the splitting of the moon, although seen by many trustworthy eye-witnesses and reliably reported by way of the ‘Science of Hadith’, was in fact merely an illusion.

So…you realize that the crucifiction of Jesus was real. There was no one suddenly substituted for Him. That Jesus really did die on the cross. Good for you Hamba!!! You might be on your way.

 

[pismopal]

Religions must…and will be judged by the actions of adherents. This is fair…anything else is subjective. Whose religion is violent…intolerent…cruel…intransigent?