Where is the Catholic political anti-abortion mandate?

[CaliLobo]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

 

[CaliLobo]

Furthermore, the Protestants and Orthodox think more flexibly than Catholics when it comes to political issues.

They are no more or less intelligent than Catholics. Why do their positions lack wisdom?

 

[Rau]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

Note to moderators: The thread might be better situated under moral theology where the topic can be addressed objectively. It is a moral question first and foremost. The social justice dimension can only arise after that hurdle is cleared.

 

[manualman]

Compromise is great when it isn’t getting people killed.

Your argument has significant merit IF and only if one starts with the premise that the fetus is NOT a real human being and that those who are convinced that she is a real human being are simpletons. But the basic science is on our side. If the fetus is NOT a human being, what IS she?

Catholics theology and principles are not open to applying the death penalty to the children of criminals. We even argue these days about whether the criminals themselves ever warrant the death penalty anymore.

 

[manualman]

Furthermore, the Protestants and Orthodox think more flexibly than Catholics when it comes to political issues.

They are no more or less intelligent than Catholics. Why do their positions lack wisdom?

Protestants are more “flexible” simply because they are more fractured. The word quite simply doesn’t really mean anything anymore because there is no one in the protestant world with the authority to draw the line between a protestant and a non-Christian heretic. Everybody defines for himself what the word means.

I’m not convinced that any authoritative EO bishop or patriarch finds “legal abortion” to be a morally acceptable status quo in civil society. Have you some examples?

 

[Rau]

Cali, the Church teaches that intrinsically evil Acts are always wrong. This is a fundamental and deep principle. It is revealed truth. How could this be changed to accommodate “exceptions” such as you suggest?

 

[LittleFlower378]

Check section #4 of this CDF document:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

 

[phil19034]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

You can find it on the Vatican’s website and on the USCCBs site. Also in the Catechism. NOTE: Some of it (as Archbishop Sample of Portland in Oregon stated) is written for someone who has a deep understanding of Catholic Moral Theology.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

because the Catholic Church does not allow punishing the children of criminals. If a man rapes a woman. The child and the woman are BOTH innocent. Is the American justice system going to sentence the rapist to death? No. So why do we allow a death sentence for the child?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

because in this instance society is going against divine and natural law. For thousands of years, abortion was considered evil by Christians (abortion has been around for thousands of years - done differently, but still around). But now, all of a sudden it’s OK? Society is being controlled and/or manipulated by pagans, atheists, the devil, humanism, and misplaced compassion / misplaced mercy. If the Catholic Church doesn’t stand up for Divine Law and God’s Will, who will?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

 

[Kal2012]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

Why do you assume that all of society is alienated by the position of the Catholic Church?

Some of us join the church (in part) because of the Church’s strong social stances, not in spite of them. (Shocker, I know! )

Honestly, my only exception tends to be if the life of the mother is danger. Both lives are valuable. I can see where sometimes it would be necessary to save the living woman over the child in the womb. However, if a woman’s pregnancy is a healthy pregnancy, then I struggle to support the decision to abort, regardless of “the reason.”

In the end, people have been taught that the “personal is political”. So, like everything else, you’ll find people on opposite sides of the question.

People can be “faithful” Catholics and call themselves politically Liberal or conservative.

But, to answer your question, the mandate comes from people who believe that preventing abortions makes our society more virtuous/Godly.

While that answer may seem unsatisfactory, it’s the closest you probably are going to get to one w/out saying the words “Republicans” or “Democrats”.

Not everyone subscribes to a “cafeteria” or Liberal version of God. And some people are going to vote for what they think God would approve of in their ballot boxes.

People are free to disagree with me.

God bless America and free speech rights!

However, I go back to the fact that I will never know if the baby my mom aborted from a rape was a boy or a girl. A brother or a sister. A member of my family died when she had that abortion. That’s the tragic part to me. I never got to know this unique person because my mom felt like she had to get an abortion.

I don’t want other people to feel that loss and like something is missing in their lives.

 

[Elizium23]

Honestly, my only exception tends to be if the life of the mother is danger. Both lives are valuable. I can see where sometimes it would be necessary to save the living woman over the child in the womb. However, if a woman’s pregnancy is a healthy pregnancy, then I struggle to support the decision to abort, regardless of “the reason.”

The “life of the mother” exception is a dangerous way to put the camel’s nose in the tent.

I was dismayed to see this exception suggested by both Catholic voter guides in my diocese.

The Association of Pro-life Physicians has a good piece on it here:
Are there rare cases when an Abortion is justified?

 

[edwest2]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

The baby growing in the womb is not the victim of a crime or abuse. It is not, as was once said, “a blob of tissue.” It is alive. The criminal or abuser should be brought to justice, not the baby. Getting to decide which babies get to live and which don’t is not our call to make except in the case of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby dies without that being the intent of the mother.

Some members of society have alienated themselves from the truth after literally decades of propaganda and outright lies.

catholic.com/video/why-is-abortion-non-negotiable

Peace,
Ed

 

[Rau]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? .

Why should this question focus on any single type of act? Why not replace the word “abortion” by other grave acts? Should we want our laws to oppose Theft? Infanticide? Honour killings? Or should we remain mute, politically speaking, on these issues, as you propose we do on abortion?

The political dimension to your question is really a red herring. It invites us to think there might be a rationale to turn a blind eye to evil. We live in political States with laws and referendums and political processes in which we must participate, just as we must participate in school, in work, in family and so on. All of these are part of our lives, and we should live out all dimensions in accordance with Christian principles.

The Central issue is the remainder of your OP - the suggestion that abortion should be “OK”, at least in certain circumstances, and your suggestion that by adopting such a position we would, as a result, see a great reduction in abortions, ie. those not due to rape, incest, abuse, would cease or be greatly reduced in number.

I await you case on both the morality of abortion in particular circumstances, and your explanation of how a change in church teaching to allow some abortions would see a great reduction in abortions.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

Because the infant did not commit incest, rape, or abuse, and the infant is killed.

Why is it all right to kill an innocent, helpful infant?

 

[Rau]

Why is it all right to [intentionally] kill an innocent, helpful infant?

Note that the context here must be about what is morally right, not what is legally right. The Church teaches morality, not law and jurisprudence. Further, there would be nothing to discuss if this were a legal discussion - we need only look up the statute to discover what is and is not permissible.

So thinking objectively, in a moral framework, I can only come up with 3 possible reasons that a person could think that abortion is OK:

1. The person holds the view that the baby is not a person, but rather a mere biological mass, and thus the moral prohibition on Murder does not apply. OR
2. The person holds the view that a child which is the product of rape, incest or abuse is not an innocent person, but a continuing manifestation of the assault which was meted out to the mother. [This is the assessment given to the rapist’s semen, and the basis upon which the woman is entitled to have that semen removed or nullified.] Under this theory, murder of the child in the womb, or after the child’s birth but prior to it achieving independence, would seem equally “justified”. I doubt anyone would hold this view. OR
3. The person may be a moral relativist, in which case he holds the view that there are no “absolute, always wrong to choose” acts & so the evil in an act always depends on the circumstances. In this way, he can “weigh-up” / trade-off the perceived “downside” of “lumbering” a woman with an unplanned baby against the evil of murdering a baby. Of course, morally speaking, this is no different to murdering a troublesome baby after birth for the same reason. If this latter act is unacceptable morally, then we must assume theory (1) above holds sway.

A person who believes that abortion is generally a woman’s right is almost certainly adopting theory 1. A person who believes abortion is wrong in all but certain cases [the view this thread proposes that the Church should adopt] is most likely adopting theory 3.

The Church holds that:

a) Babies are persons form the moment of conception;
b) There are intrinsically evil, always wrong to choose acts - Murder being one of them.

Is there a need to debate (a)? Probably not if we admit that there are cases when abortion is wrong.

As for point (b)…
The Catechism:

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

 

[CaliLobo]

I’m not convinced that any authoritative EO bishop or patriarch finds “legal abortion” to be a morally acceptable status quo in civil society. Have you some examples?

The Orthodox churches teach morality and holiness but do not take a stance as to what political positions believers should take. Much of it is because Eastern Europe was historically much more politically stable, and/or it was under Communist rule. In short, Orthodox churches haven’t had the chance to think deeply about these questions, but the bottom line is that the Orthodox Church does not take political stances.

Rau:

Why should this question focus on any single type of act? Why not replace the word “abortion” by other grave acts? Should we want our laws to oppose Theft? Infanticide? Honour killings? Or should we remain mute, politically speaking, on these issues, as you propose we do on abortion?

The political dimension to your question is really a red herring. It invites us to think there might be a rationale to turn a blind eye to evil. We live in political States with laws and referendums and political processes in which we must participate, just as we must participate in school, in work, in family and so on. All of these are part of our lives, and we should live out all dimensions in accordance with Christian principles.

The Central issue is the remainder of your OP - the suggestion that abortion should be “OK”, at least in certain circumstances, and your suggestion that by adopting such a position we would, as a result, see a great reduction in abortions, ie. those not due to rape, incest, abuse, would cease or be greatly reduced in number.

I await you case on both the morality of abortion in particular circumstances, and your explanation of how a change in church teaching to allow some abortions would see a great reduction in abortions.

Let’s face it. In the USA we’re never gonna reverse Roe v Wade. It is settled law. So let’s offer realistic solutions and meet in the middle.

1. Ban abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother.
   Or 2) Make an ultrasound showing mandatory as part of informed consent.

Since most abortions are done out of convenience, solutions 1 or 2 will greatly reduce the number of abortions, which is a great step forward for Catholics.

But politically lobbying to reverse Roe v Wade has not worked, and will not work.

The political dimension is not a red herring. The Orthodox and Protestants think differently on this issue politically, although both oppose it morally. Do you contend that they have less wisdom on the intersection of politics and faith?

And you make a great point. If the Catholics oppose abortion politically, they need to oppose all other sins politically with equal zeal. How about pornography, prostitution, and no-fault divorce? Should we ban condoms? Should be ban immodest clothing?

You say we should live out our political lives in accordance to Christian principles. But exactly what does that mean? What does that entail in detail? It is too simplistic, once again, to say “We believe this way, so we must vote this way no matter what, regardless of the consequences.”

 

[Rau]

The Orthodox churches teach morality and holiness but do not take a stance as to what political positions believers should take. Much of it is because Eastern Europe was historically much more politically stable, and/or it was under Communist rule. In short, Orthodox churches haven’t had the chance to think deeply about these questions, but the bottom line is that the Orthodox Church does not take political stances.

Let’s face it. In the USA we’re never gonna reverse Roe v Wade. It is settled law. So let’s offer realistic solutions and meet in the middle.

1. Ban abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother.
   Or 2) Make an ultrasound showing mandatory as part of informed consent.

Since most abortions are done out of convenience, solutions 1 or 2 will greatly reduce the number of abortions, which is a great step forward for Catholics.

But politically lobbying to reverse Roe v Wade has not worked, and will not work.

The political dimension is not a red herring. The Orthodox and Protestants think differently on this issue politically, although both oppose it morally. Do you contend that they have less wisdom on the intersection of politics and faith?

And you make a great point. If the Catholics oppose abortion politically, they need to oppose all other sins politically with equal zeal. How about pornography, prostitution, and no-fault divorce? Should we ban condoms? Should be ban immodest clothing?

You say we should live out our political lives in accordance to Christian principles. But exactly what does that mean? What does that entail in detail? It is too simplistic, once again, to say “We believe this way, so we must vote this way no matter what, regardless of the consequences.”

You’re not engaging with the essential moral realities, you’re preference is to write a blog, focussing on politics, restating your view, omitting logical reasoning. Your position is dead in the water Cali, and you’re drowning alongside it. I’ll keep an eye on this thread to see if you step up to the plate and try to deal with the key points your interlocutors have made.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Whether or not civil law allows abortion doesn’t change the morality of it.

What does the Catholic Church do? We have charities that try to help pregnant women who need assistance. The best way, in my opinion, to save babies is to try to provide what mothers would need if they decide to keep their baby or put their baby up for adoption.

Unfortunately, our society is becoming more and more hostile to children. There are Catholic countries that provide free health care to all pregnant women all the way until their baby reaches six months of age. They have other health care options after that at low cost. That is the best approach to saving babies. Make it easier to be pregnant and raise children. We have done the opposite in the US. We have become more hostile towards families and we have some of the worst maternity leave policies in the world. Countries much poorer than ours allow extended maternity leave. That shows respect for families.

Support women who choose to have children and save babies in the process. Everyone wins.

 

[tskrobacz]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse? Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions?

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

Abortion is blasphemy against the Eucharist. In the Eucharist, Jesus says this IS my body. In Abortion, the women says “No, this is MY body, and so is that of my unborn child”…it truly is the diabolical workings of the antichrist. There is no middle on this issue. It is rational to be 1 issue voter on this matter and vote strictly for candidates that are pro-life.

 

[CaptFun]

Where in Catholic teaching is the Catholic mandate to oppose abortion politically? Let’s discuss. OK.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church meet in the middle and allow abortion in cases of incest, rape, or abuse?

1. The Church must serve God first.
2. Which is serving humankind BETTER than indulging its worst instincts in the inteest of money, popularity or other worldly priorities that would violate the First Commandment (and the Fifth).
3. Unborn babies are too young to have committed incest, rape or abuse. They are innocent. And even the guilty are usually given a trial when the death penalty is being sought.
4. Meeting “in the middle” begs the question … the middle of WHAT? As Catholics believe that all children are created by God … the Church compromising on the Fifth Commandment in this case would be to assent to destroying what God is creating! Such a Church would then not be Christian (following Christ) but Satanic (opposing Him). "What you do to the least of my brethren you do to me.
5. The Church does not know every mystery of God … but it is not fuzzy on whether unborn children are a part of the family. The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth called pregnant Mary a “Mother” … though Jesus was yet unborn.
6. Catholics have free will. One who has been baptized is a Catholic forever. Yet the Church teaches that when a baptized person commits a mortal sin … they have forfeited all their sanctifying grace and risk hell unless they repent and are absolved of those sins. In THAT sense some “Catholics” actually support abortion. Is a Catholic in the state of Mortal Sin still really a Catholic? Yes technically. No in the sense of Salvation (that is, they have jumped off of the Ark, are adrift, and could never swim their way to port (so to speak) without getting back on. Fortunately for them the Church wants them back aboard and will go to great lengths to welcome the wandering sheep back. Not just those who have stupidly assented to the awful sin of abortion in the voting booth … but even unto those who have committed the very act of abortion … the mothers, those who paid for the crime … and even the “doctors” who did it … if they seek the incomparable gift of forgiveness through Christ by confessing and repenting of their sin(s), and making whatever reparations the Church might recommend (if any).

The question is one that favors a lukewarm (at best) “Christianity” - which Jesus stated he is disgusted with " … the lukewarm I shall spit from my mouth."

Wouldn’t that be a better practical solution, and in turn, reduce most abortions? No. Because it makes one assent to some murders that are unjust.The murders are not theoretical – but real per results. This would be "thinking as men think …not as God thinks" and so NOT what Catholics should ever DO! The SEEMING benefit(s) notwithstanding.

Why does it have to oppose all abortion at all costs, alienating all of society?

Would that it did. There are some VERY public lukewarm to COLD Catholics (sometimes in the clergy, though usually that would bring sanctions against them) that would compromise away everything that opposes the selfish and secular for the sake of convenience and a false peace. Abortion is an abomination. It is not good at all. It should NEVER be done deliberately. And a Holy Church, far from alienating society - must aim to save and help “society” not join it in its most destructive, disgusting, unjust and God-contradicting notions.

Let’s not bring up political parties this time; let’s keep the thread open.

Agreed. Although since you mention it in this sentence … it is good to know the actual platforms of any party one would vote for/with. As well as the individual candidates, regardless of party.

Thanks for the opportunity to share! CaptFun.

 

[Scottgun]

More magisterial support for anti-abortion mandate from Evangelium Vitae:

Laws which authorize and promote abortion and euthanasia are therefore radically opposed not only to the good of the individual but also to the common good; as such they are completely lacking in authentic juridical validity. Disregard for the right to life, precisely because it leads to the killing of the person whom society exists to serve, is what most directly conflicts with the possibility of achieving the common good. Consequently, a civil law authorizing abortion or euthanasia ceases by that very fact to be a true, morally binding civil law.

1. Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection.

Ain’t no way around it. If you think you can punt on the issue of abortion, you are in the wrong church.